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"Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong; they are the ones to attain felicity".
(surah Al-Imran,ayat-104)
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User Name: International_Professor
Full Name: International Professor
User since: 22/Jan/2008
No Of voices: 353
 
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 Reply:   Mr turkman, i think you have very short memory
Replied by(turkman) Replied on (21/Feb/2011)

Yeah, yeah it was a 'Declared War' by government of Afghanistan or Pakistan with Russia and you can call it a 'Regular Pitched Battle' also. It was not a Gorilla and definitely not a Hit and Run Gorilla War.
I had forgotten that USSR had already dis-integrated before 1979 and it was just Russia they had a war with. Thanks for reminding me.
Of course I had also forgotten Pakistan's 1948 War in which we had won and conquered Kashmir and 1965 war that we had won and conquered Delhi. I had forgotten Gen. Ayub was never begging USA to stop the 1965 after India had declared that on Sept. 6.
It was India begging USA to save her and stop the Super Power Pakistan from destroying whole India. Could you please tell me, why some people had kept joking about Pakistan that its so crazy that not only propagates falsehood, it even celebrates its defeat on September 6th?
Please forgive me. What can I do. I am getting too old and my memory is lapsing.Please never answer my posts because I am only a Senile old man ...!

 
 Reply:   Mr turkman, i think you have very short memory
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (21/Feb/2011)

what about Afghan's wining against Russia in Afghanistan. Mostly muslims are victim of proxy wars. what about Pakistan winning in 1948 and 1965.
 
 Reply:   Reply: stop worryinng about our ummah
Replied by(turkman) Replied on (20/Feb/2011)

Excuse me but could you tell me, why have Moslims not won a declared war or any regular Pitched Battle for centuries against any Koffaar?
I remember the last small Battle that Kamal Ata Turk had won against Great Britain to free his country but even in that war he had fought against our Punjabi Moslims, who had conquered 2/3rd of Turkey for the British as British Army Soldiers.
What are you going to do after conquering the world with your Sneak Attack Terrorism without enough education to run this world?
Would you not be just looting Non Moslims, enslaving them and raping their Daughters like we had done in 7th Century and your Taliban had done in Afghanistan?

 
 Reply:   Raymond Davis, a ‘strategic corporal’ in Pakistan
Replied by(International_Professor) Replied on (18/Feb/2011)

The strange case of Raymond Davis, a ‘strategic corporal’ in Pakistan

Posted by Robert Haddick on February 16, 2011 11:10 AM |

In 1999, Gen. Charles Krulak, USMC coined the term “strategic corporal,” referring to a low-level soldier whose battlefield decisions could have strategic consequences. Raymond Davis, an “administrative and technical staff” employee at the United States consulate in Lahore, may soon be inducted into the “strategic corporal” Hall of Fame. Davis, now jailed in Lahore and awaiting trial for allegedly murdering two Pakistani men whom Davis claims were attempting to rob him at gunpoint, may accomplish what Osama bin Laden, the Taliban, and ISI scheming have failed to do, namely cause a fundamental break in relations between the United States and Pakistan.

U.S. State Department spokesmen have called for Davis’s release under the terms of diplomatic immunity. The Pakistani government has thus far refused and continues to process Davis’s criminal case while it reviews his diplomatic status. Meanwhile, authorities in Lahore leaked the police investigation to the local media, which seems to have further inflamed public outrage against Davis and the U.S. government. The U.S. government has cancelled a Feb 23rd meeting with Pakistani and Afghan officials. Activists in Pakistan are threatening Cairo-style protests if Davis is set free.

Davis’s case is only the latest in a long line of complaints the U.S. government has against the Pakistani government, most of which center around Pakistan’s reluctance to fully cooperate with the U.S. campaign plan in Afghanistan. The U.S. government no doubt already knows that its ability to spring Davis from captivity is inhibited by the same constraint that has limited its ability to compel greater Pakistani compliance concerning Afghanistan. Pakistan’s control over supply lines into Afghanistan is a trump card that seems to rank even higher than the billions in aid the U.S. supplies to Pakistan every year.

Pakistan had an opportunity early in the Davis affair to label the two slain men as street thieves and miscreants and to whisk Davis out of the country. The authorities didn’t follow this course due to very legitimate fears of a strong backlash from the street, or because some policymakers saw an opportunity to leverage the Davis capture to extract something more from the Americans. With the case having now boiled for over two weeks, it will be extremely difficult for the Pakistani authorities to back down.

The easiest path for U.S. policymakers would be to throw Davis overboard. But they obviously realize that that would set a terrible precedent. The long-term U.S. government strategy for “Af-Pak” contemplates larger long-term diplomatic staffs on both sides of the border, which will include security force assistance trainers and advisors, many of whom will be contractors. If Davis is tossed away, it will become much more difficult to recruit quality individuals for these positions and for those working in the field to be effective at their jobs. If the U.S. government has to pay some sort of ransom to get Davis back, such a payment could create an incentive to arrange more such incidents in the future. Such a downward spiral would cripple the U.S. government’s plans to have its diplomats and contractors in the field improving local security in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

What is most surprising about the Davis incident is not that it occurred but that such an incident hasn’t happened sooner or more frequently. The Davis incident shows the difficulty the U.S. government has operating inside a country that is hostile to it. Plans to expand that presence will only multiply the risks.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2011/02/the-strange-case-of-raymond-da/

 

 


 
 Reply:   stop worryinng about our ummah
Replied by(Asym) Replied on (18/Feb/2011)

stop worrying about the illiteracy of ummah. At least you shouldnt. Leave to our lord almighty who has already assigned it a role in the history of the world.Inshallah and soon will conquer the KUFFARS as foreseen by our beloved messenger. YOU LITERACY PROGRAMS WONT REALLY HELP SO THANK YOU AND DONT BOTHER TO REPLY AS THEY ARE FROM A PAID WEB THUG
 
 Reply:   Oye TURKEY CHICKEN MAN
Replied by(Asym) Replied on (18/Feb/2011)

I agree, we are hate mongers, BUT only THAT but not soul sellers for peanuts like you. If those guys were robbers than your so called diplomat was XE blackwater thug. As far as charities of US are concerned we all know how US empire was built initially by killing RED indians and capturing their lands and since then exploiting the rest of the world by printing toilet paper dollars to subjugate the rest of us. What about their interest in our charities REq DIKO and other mineral and gas reserve.There monkies in afghanistan cant put the show on if our charity by way of oil doesnt reach there. WE DONT WANT YOUR CHARITY GO AWAY AND STOP DISTRACTING OUR PEOPLE FROM PUTTING GOOD THNGS HERE. NO ONE SHOULD INVOLVE WITH THIS LUNATIC WHO SEEMS TO A PAID WEB XE THUG
 
 Reply:   Oye TURKEY CHICKEN MAN
Replied by(Asym) Replied on (18/Feb/2011)

I agree, we are hate mongers, BUT only THAT but not soul sellers for peanuts like you. If those guys were robbers than your so called diplomat was XE blackwater thug. As far as charities of US are concerned we all know how US empire was built initially by killing RED indians and capturing their lands and since then exploiting the rest of the world by printing toilet paper dollars to subjugate the rest of us. What about their interest in our charities REq DIKO and other mineral and gas reserve.There monkies in afghanistan cant put the show on if our charity by way of oil doesnt reach there. WE DONT WANT YOUR CHARITY GO AWAY AND STOP DISTRACTING OUR PEOPLE FROM PUTTING GOOD THNGS HERE. NO ONE SHOULD INVOLVE WITH THIS LUNATIC WHO SEEMS TO A PAID WEB XE THUG
 
 Reply:   Oye TURKEY CHICKEN MAN
Replied by(Asym) Replied on (18/Feb/2011)

I agree, we are hate mongers, BUT only THAT but not soul sellers for peanuts like you. If those guys were robbers than your so called diplomat was XE blackwater thug. As far as charities of US are concerned we all know how US empire was built initially by killing RED indians and capturing their lands and since then exploiting the rest of the world by printing toilet paper dollars to subjugate the rest of us. What about their interest in our charities REq DIKO and other mineral and gas reserve.There monkies in afghanistan cant put the show on if our charity by way of oil doesnt reach there. WE DONT WANT YOUR CHARITY GO AWAY AND STOP DISTRACTING OUR PEOPLE FROM PUTTING GOOD THNGS HERE. NO ONE SHOULD INVOLVE WITH THIS LUNATIC WHO SEEMS TO A PAID WEB XE THUG
 
 Reply:   Don't try to reply to Torkman
Replied by(turkman) Replied on (17/Feb/2011)

Yeah, yeah and this is why I had tried to build Hi-tech Electronics Factory in Pakistan in 1984, then in 1990 and then from 1996 to 2000 to change the fate of Pakistan and industrialize Pakistan.
This is why I cry on the corruption, backwardness, Illiteracy and ignorance of 'Ommah' so often. Its because I am an Enemy of Moslims, Islam and Pakistan, thank you ...!
Enemies of Islam, Moslims and Pakistan, leave Pakistan alone ...!
 
 Reply:   Don't try to reply to Torkman
Replied by(Ghulam_Rasool) Replied on (17/Feb/2011)

I wrote many times that this person is on pay role of a agency and he has entered on this website to dig out and do his job. I know many things about him but this is a discussion forum and free expression is allowed to everyone. However he even did not know or try to read entire crime scene, murder of four persons.

Read his comments against Dr. Aafia Siddiqui and in favor of Tahir Qadri. He is simply against Pakistan, Islam and Pakistani citizens that is why he claimed refugee status in U.S.


 
 Reply:   Mr turkman- we respect Vienna Convention
Replied by(turkman) Replied on (17/Feb/2011)

I am not asking you to respect Vienna Convention. I am begging you to respect your own Pak Penal Code that permits Self Defense killing just like laws of all countries of the world and Islam if you are really Moslims.
When your own Witnesses are telling you he shot in self defense, when his Bullet Ridden car is an Evidence, you have no reason to charge him for Murder. End of the case and the rest is nothing but Bigotry, the hate against USA and Americans of insane people, who have been living off US Charities since 1953.
 
 Reply:   Mr turkman- we respect Vienna Convention but
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (17/Feb/2011)

Mr turkman- we respect Vienna Convention but every one knows, as per the records.. Raymond Devis is not at all Islamabad embassy staff up to 27th Jan. up to that date, embassy had declared him as non-embassy staff and had asked for non-diplomatic ID card. so, whatever US is trying now is baseless and useless. because he is not a person who can claim immunity under Vienna convention. You are curse of your own mind... who can only think two things 1- how to lick American balls 2- how to bash islamists
 
 Reply:   Vienna Convention a JOKE
Replied by(turkman) Replied on (17/Feb/2011)

Vienna Convention is not a Joke neither this world. You are not a Joke either. You are simply Insane Hate Mongers. It looks like you love your Armed Robbers more than worrying about end of US Charity that you have been living off since 1953. May Allah help cure your this Brain Disease ...!
 
 Reply:   Vienna Convention a JOKE
Replied by(Asym) Replied on (17/Feb/2011)

Its the height of absurdity that Pakistan must observe vienna conventions even if that means diplomats/counselors could kill  pakistanis at will. What if Davis had shot our prime minister, foreign minister or any other high profile person such as aq khan.Could he claim immunity then because the vienne conventions say so. Also the self defense and armed robbery argument is a joke. It is the factual position now that he was in a car having fake id, cameras with photos of sensitive locations satellite phones make up kit etc. Vienna conventions are not supreme laws and are only treaties which cannot take precedence over consititution or national legislation and law of Pakistan. 


 
 Reply:   How Pakistan can make fool to fools
Replied by(Ghulam_Rasool) Replied on (16/Feb/2011)

Pakistan is not making fool to anyone, it is yankees that are foolest nation in the world spending money on Wars.

Pakistan is receiving its share out of unlimited wealth of foolish yankees.

Anyone which uses bad words for the country where he/She was born is called bastard of the nation. Whole life by driving cabs at USA and now calling bad names to Pakistan is surprising.


 
 Reply:   Some More Updates or Raymond Davis
Replied by(turkman) Replied on (16/Feb/2011)

Okay then you are propagating wrong stuff. You are not quoting International, Pakistani and Islamic Law that permits anybody to kill an Armed Robber in Self Defense, which has been violated.
You are quoting reasons to violate Geneva Convention Treaty also by interpreting it wrong.
Geneva Convention does not permit questioning of authority of a Foreign Government that declares any of its citizen Diplomat and there is no time limit on that. If you are right please quote any precedence, when Pak Government has refused to accept Diplomatic Status of an American before after US Embassy declared him a Diplomat.
Its just a Political Game that Pakistani 'Nmak Hraams' have been playing with a country that she has been living off since 1953 taking advantage of leniency of USA. Why be 'Moonaafiq'?
Does Islam permit this?
Why not declare war at USA since we hate her so much instead of keep begging for more and more Charity of Aid and Loans? Its nothing but blackmailing that is taking place.
 
 Reply:   Raymond Davis does not enjoy complete diplomatic immunity: Qureshi
Replied by(International_Professor) Replied on (16/Feb/2011)

Raymond Davis does not enjoy complete diplomatic immunity: Qureshi

Former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi Wednesday disclosed that the U.S. employee, who is facing double murder charges in Pakistan, is not entitled to full diplomatic immunity as is being demanded by the U. S. authorities.
The U.S. insists that Raymond Allen Davis, who shot dead two Pakistanis in Lahore last month, must be freed as he enjoys diplomatic immunity.
Qureshi disputed the U.S. claim and said that top officers at the Foreign Ministry had briefed him on Jan. 31 that the U.S. accused does not enjoy complete diplomatic immunity.
He told a news conference in Islamabad after meeting the visiting Chairman of U.S. Senate Foreign Relations John Kerry.
He said that he had told the government leaders about the Foreign Office briefing about the status of the U.S. employee, adding that the leadership had argued that let the court decide the issue of diplomatic immunity.
Qureshi also said that Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani also said in the National Assembly, the lower house of the parliament, on Feb. 3 that the court will decide fate of the American suspect.
The former Foreign Minister said he did not accept any pressure on the issue and said he will also give information about the case if summoned by the court.
Local media reported late Tuesday night that the Foreign Ministry had said in a communication to the Law Ministry that the U.S. accused enjoys diplomatic immunity.
But the Spokesperson of the Foreign Ministry Wednesday contradicted media reports about any pronouncement, public or official, made by the Foreign Ministry relating to the question of immunity of Raymond Davis.
"Speculation in this regard is unfounded," a brief of Foreign Ministry said.
The issue has pushed Pakistan and the U.S. to a deep diplomatic row and the U.S. has suspended high level talks with Pakistan and several U.S. Congressmen threatened to stop aid to its ally.

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/16-Feb-2011/Raymond-Davis-does-not-enjoy-complete-diplomatic-immunity-Qureshi

 


 
 Reply:   Few Facts about Raymond Davis's real identity
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (16/Feb/2011)
.
http://www.makepakistanbetter.com/why_how_what_forum.asp?GroupID=5&ArticleID=12927
 
 Reply:   Mr. John Kerry raised the curtain from the faces of hypocrites at Islamabad
Replied by(International_Professor) Replied on (16/Feb/2011)

Mr. John Kerry raised the curtain from the faces of hypocrites at Islamabad.

Mr. John Kerry today reached Pakistan and during a session with journalists he disclosed that entire mess created behind Raymond Davis case was work of A Rahman Malik, what people’s party has been saying to public was quiet opposite to what Mr. John Kerry revealed.

It is confirmed that Zardari had promised release of murderer but all quarters in Government had been making fool to public by playing double game. Kerry revealed that A Rahman Malik has told U.S. that papers showing Raymond Davis as diplomat are in exclusive custody of A Rahman Malik and stand taken by Shah Mahmood Qureshi being foreign minister was wrong.

Mr. Kerry also appreciated Fauzia Wahab about her yesterday’s press conference about immunity of murderer. Within hours that were rejected by President house by declaring her personal opinion. But today’s appreciation statement of Mr. Kerry again tells hypocrisy of Peoples Party that drama created by Fauzia Wahab was part of U.S. embassy’s show to support Mr. Kerry’s visit.

Moreover today Obama has announced 3.2 billion for Pakistan and linked that with Raymond Davis’s release. Question is whether those 3.2 billion dollars would benefit four dead victims and their families, as per Obama’s announcement $3.2 million would be paid to general Kiyani as bribe, answer is no and whole money as usual would be directly given to America’s puppets and mercenaries in Pakistan. World knows that how corrupt are those American’s puppets.

Please read following report that was written prior to visit of Mr. John Kerry to Pakistan.

We have no concern with demands and pressure of U.S. Government, their approach is patriotic and caring to their citizens and worth following. Matter is hypocrisy of Peoples Party for making fool to public, hiding facts by telling one story to Americans and telling different version to public.

In all of Raymond Davis affair, there is no name of victims and even Mr. Kerry did not mentioned at a single stage that Raymond Davis is a murderer, nor any word about murderer of third Pakistani and surprisingly Kiyani and Pasha are mum on the issue that also tells that CIA and Xe services murderers are known to army and ISI.

 

PPP’s double game

Published: February 16, 2011

PPP Information Secretary Fauzia Wahab’s thesis that she presented at a press conference in Karachi on Monday was a mixture of advocacy for the release of Raymond Davis, warning of bad consequences if he were not, and threat of a show cause notice to former Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi for “violating” the party discipline on this issue. Thus, she confirmed the general feeling that the PPP was desperately looking for a way out of the bind in which it has been caught by the case, and would like to hand Davis over to the Americans soonest possible. Senator John Kerry, one of the sponsors of the Kerry-Lugar Bill, is already in Pakistan, apparently to exercise pressure to set Davis free.

However, hardly had Ms Wahab’s voice been carried on the airwaves than presidential spokesman Farhatullah Babar came out with the weird idea that she was only expressing her “personal views” and not the views of the party or the government. The seemingly apologetic denial of PPP’s association with whatever Ms Wahab had said, while was an attempt to mollify the public sentiments she obviously had outraged by her manipulated reasoning, immediately brought to mind one conclusion, though not the most significant, that she might, like Mr Qureshi, be pulled up for stepping out of the party line. But, leaving it aside, one must say that it is hard to buy Mr Babar’s sophistry. Plainly, it is PPP’s move at double game at which it has become quite adept. It should be understood that a ruling party’s information secretary has not only to be very sure of the arguments he or she presents, but also must have the approval of the party high command before putting them across to the public, especially while talking to the press on such a sensitive topic. For he or she is the top spokesperson of the party in power, and it would be rightly deduced that he or she was spelling out government policy. In the present case, she had come fully laced with what she thought was documentary support of the arguments against keeping the American citizen in detention.

It is good that unlike Ms Wahab, Mr Qureshi did not undervalue Pakistani citizens’ lives, and stuck to the factual position, as formally conveyed to him by Foreign Office, that Davis was not a diplomat enjoying diplomatic immunity. He refused to be pressurised by Secretary Hillary Clinton and Ambassador Cameron Munter to declare him a diplomat from back date. Against the backdrop of the loss of lives, the plea for releasing the accused on the score of the huge and varying US-Pak economic relations neither holds water, not befits a nation eager to safeguard its sovereignty and the rights of its people. And on top of that, Mr Qureshi has left no doubt that at least at the time he committed the crime he neither held diplomatic passport or status, nor official visa. Raymond Davis should, therefore, be shown no quarter, and the case allowed taking its course. Any attempt at whisking him away to the US would entail a severe backlash.

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Opinions/Editorials/16-Feb-2011/PPPs-double-game/1

 


 
 Reply:   Davis case: Police submits complete charge sheet in court
Replied by(International_Professor) Replied on (15/Feb/2011)

Davis case: Police submits complete charge sheet in court

A complete charge sheet of Raymond Davis was presented to the District and session Judge Lahore.

The 25-page charge sheet states that Raymond Davis did not kill Faheem and Faizan in self-defense.

The accused did not even cooperate at all during the interrogation.

It has been proven in the charge sheet that Raymond Davis murdered two people.

The murder victim Faizan did not have bullets in his gun.

On the other hand, the statements by former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi and PPP information minister Fauzia Wahab regarding Raymond Davis have been challenged in the Lahore High Court.

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Regional/Lahore/15-Feb-2011/Davis-case-Police-submits-complete-charge-sheet-in-court

 


 
 Reply:   Vienna Debate
Replied by(Asym) Replied on (15/Feb/2011)

In deciding the question of diplomatic or counselor immunity the following legal principles need to be borne in mind. The supreme law of the land is the constitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, 1973. Article 5 states that loyalty to state and constitutional law is basic duty of every citizen and obedience to constitution and law is the inviolable obligation of every citizen. This is followed by the Article 6 which states that anyone who abrogates or subverts the constitution will be guilty of high treason. The most basic fundamental right is enshrined in Article 9 states that no citizen shall be deprived of life and liberty, save in accordance with law. The question that arises after killing of two Pakistanis is whether Vienna Conventions on diplomatic and/or counselor relations or any other national legislation under which diplomatic immunity in Davis’s case could be given are laws/principles that can supersede the constitutional law of Pakistan? If so then as per the constitution of Pakistan all those would be hit by Article 5 and subsequently 6 as the constitution of Pakistan supersedes every other law or laws made in derogation to it.
 
 Reply:   Some More Updates or Raymond Davis
Replied by(turkman) Replied on (15/Feb/2011)

Could any of Armed Robber Lovers please answer my following question? How would you hide all these lies and your crazy attitude in front of God, who knows, what's in your hearts?
 
 Reply:   davis immunity
Replied by(Asym) Replied on (15/Feb/2011)

The debate about vienna convention is just plain nonsense. They cannot quote a single legal precedent or a case having similarity to the brutal killing of two pakistanis by a foreigner as no where in the world any foreigner official had the audacity to shoot people down in busy streets and roads of a foreign country. This is the first case of its kind in which immunity is being claimed. Forget vienna or genneva does US constitutional law give blanket killing licenses to its citizens to go about and kill people at will what about their own law. Who allowed this freak to come here in Pakistan. Well the government would obviously not tell you because he is not the only under cover agent in Pakistan there are others as well
 
 Reply:   Davis vs Afia
Replied by(manc) Replied on (15/Feb/2011)

EVERY ONE TALKING ABOUT GENEVA CONVENTION AND IMMUNITY. MY QUESTION IS, DO THE GENEVA CONVENTION ALLOWS FORIGN DIPLOMATES DROVE VEHICLE WITH FAKE NUMBER-PLATE, CARRY UN-LICENCED AMMUNITION AND KILL PEOPLES? APPRECIATE FOR COMMENTS PLEASE.
 
 Reply:   Fauzia Wahab’s sedition against Pakistani courts
Replied by(International_Professor) Replied on (15/Feb/2011)

Fauzia Wahab’s sedition against Pakistani courts

Now the cat is out from the bag, Information secretary of People Party has announced Zardari’s policy on Raymond Davis case. Fauzia Wahab’s connection with foreign intelligence agencies is well known and now she is taking direct advice from overseas embassy at Islamabad. U.S. embassy has refused to release murderers of third victim. What a nonsense peoples are sitting at Islamabad and Rawalpindi.

Following reports are self explanatory:

Davis immunity issue People’s Party, Presidency not on the same page

KARACHI: Raymond Davis, involved in the killing of two Pakistanis in Lahore, enjoys diplomatic immunity and the relevant law has to be respected, Secretary Information, PPP, Fauzia Wahab, MNA, said on Monday.
Talking to reporters at the Karachi Press Club, the PPP central leader said the Raymond Davis case was a sensitive issue and an unusual event. She said that those who were projecting the case had forgotten the diplomatic norms and that Pakistan was a signatory to the Vienna Convention. She said that these elements had also forgotten the Pakistani laws.
Reading from the diplomatic act of Pakistan promulgated in 1972, Fauzia said the diplomatic staff enjoyed immunity from arrest. She pointed out that article 29 of the Act clearly stated that diplomats shall not be liable to arrest. Fauzia said Article 37 of the same Act also extended the same immunity and privileges to the technical staff. “We should follow our own law if not the Vienna Convention,” she said, adding that official visa was granted to Davis and wondered as to why there was so much discussion on it.
The PPP leader claimed that the United States was the biggest market of Pakistani goods through which Pakistan earned four billion dollars annually. The lady legislator said around one million Pakistanis were living in the USA and 80pc of remittances came from there. She estimated that Pakistanis living in the USA had sent around six billion dollars as remittances this year. “We have to follow the international obligations,” she said, fearing possible impact of the Davis case on the Pak-US relations.
To a question as to whether the government would pursue the Davis case in court, Fauzia said as long as law was there, the judiciary would review on its own and take its course. Talking about former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi’s statement that Davis was not a diplomat, Fauzia said Qureshi had violated the party discipline. Qureshi has committed an act of indiscipline, she said
Ms Wahab admitted that Qureshi was a part of the PPP’s talks with former military ruler Gen Pervez Musharraf and added that it was also a fact that such talks had failed. Ms Wahab said individuals do not matter as the policy holds significance. She said with the change of foreign minister, Pakistan’s foreign policy would not be changed. She said it would not take much time to appoint a new foreign minister.
To a question about the status of MNA from Lyari Nabil Gabol in the party and as to why he was not invited to the meeting on the Lyari affairs at the CM House on Monday, Fauzia Wahab said Gabol was a party worker and an MNA and that’s all. It is the prerogative of the party to invite or not to invite any person, the PPP information secretary said, adding that individuals do not matter in the party.
Separately, Sindh’s senior minister and PPP Sindh general secretary, Pir Mazhar-ul-Haq, speaking at a press conference at the party’s provincial head Asim Yasin adds from Islamabad: PPP Information Secretary Fauzia Wahab said that she never mentioned the name of Raymond Davis in her press talk at the Karachi Press Club, but had only read out the international laws and relevant Pakistani laws on the issue of diplomatic immunity.
“What I said was only my personal view and it did not represent the views of the party and government,” said Fauzia Wahab while talking to The News on Monday. She said she did not hold any press conference as she went to facilitate the elected body of the Karachi Press Club and journalists were also present there and in reply to a question, she had explained the international laws that were signed by Pakistan too. “I never mentioned the name of Raymond Davis in the press conference but only mentioned the clauses relating to diplomatic immunity,” she said
She was of the view that she had only mentioned the clauses relating to the Vienna Conventions of 1961 and 1963 that was also signed by Pakistan and also Pakistan’s Act of 1972 with clause of 37/2.
“I read out the relevant laws and that’s all. Any how what I said were my personal views as a citizen of Pakistan and it had nothing to do with the party and the government’s policy,” she said.
Meanwhile, the government quickly distanced itself from PPP Information Secretary Fauzia Wahab’s statement regarding diplomatic immunity for the American killer Raymond Davis, sensing a strong public backlash. “It is not the policy of the government nor of the party,” said Presidential spokesman Farhatullah Babar when asked to comment on Fauzia Wahab’s statement.
He said that Fauzia Wahab had already clarified that what she said was her personal view. “The issue is in the court of law and would be decided there,” he said. When asked about reports on disciplinary action against former foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi, Farhatullah Babar said the reports were not true.
Information Minister Dr Firdous Ashiq Awan, when asked to comment on the statement, said there was no change in the government’s policy on the issue and it was the court that will decide it and the government will respect its decision. She was of the view that the issue was a sensitive one and statements in this regard should be avoided as the case was in the court.

http://old.thenews.com.pk/15-02-2011/ethenews/t-4007.htm

Confusion prevails as Presidency takes over Davis issue

ISLAMABAD: The Presidency on Saturday deputed a powerful federal minister to take the Foreign Office documents relating to the immunity of Raymond Davis in his control. According to sources, on Monday a top presidential aide gave the Presidency’s view on the question by widely misquoting the Vienna Convention.
However, after the press conference of Fauzia Wahab was telecast as the biggest breaking news of the day, suddenly Federal Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan gave the statement that it was the ‘personal views’ of Fauzia.
Later, presidential spokesman Farhatullah Babar made the same statement and denied what Fauzia had stated, apparently on behalf of the Presidency. “Presidency has nothing to do with Monday afternoon’s press conference at the Karachi Press Club,” Farhatullah Babar clarified shortly afterwards.
True to her reputation and track record, Fauzia Wahab massively misquoted the Vienna Convention to bail out the American double murderer and to give a new spin to the issue. According to credible sources, what she said was precisely the view of the However, the point of view of presidency surfaced only after 18 days of the incident of killing of three Pakistanis in Lahore because of the former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi who was offering great resistance against American’s pressure and was a big hurdle is fulfillment of desires of President Zardari. Qureshi’s latest statement almost foiled the Presidency alleged game plan.
Fauzia read in her press conference Article 29 and Article 37(2) of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961 and concluded before a crowded press conference that Raymond Davis enjoys immunity. She said that according to Article 37(2) of this Convention, even the members of the technical staff of an embassy enjoy immunity from criminal jurisdiction. “Pakistan has signed the Vienna Convention so we will have to honour it,” she added.
Fauzia and some others are repeatedly misquoting the Vienna Convention due to unknown reasons. Following are few facts with regard to Vienna Convention.
- There are two different international conventions for diplomatic relations and consular relations. The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations (VCDR) of 1961 deals with rules, procedures and privileges with the headquarters of diplomatic missions (generally call ‘embassy’) and situated in the capital of host country. Whereas Vienna Convention on Consular Relations (VCCR) of 1963 deals with the affairs of the consulates and privileges and immunities of consular officer and consular employees. The VCDR of 1961 in its article 31(1) and 37(2) give diplomatic agents (officials having diplomatic rank) as well as non-diplomatic staff (Administrative and technical staff) appointed in embassy immunity from criminal jurisdiction. This 1961 Convention is only for the diplomatic and non-diplomatic staff appointed in an embassy. However, the VCCR of 1963 though gave immunity to consular staff appointed in consulates but this immunity is not extended to the grave crimes and in such heinous criminal cases the only competent judicial authority will decide any such privilege.
- American killer Raymond Davis was appointed in US Consulate Lahore and thus is subjected to VCCR of 1963 where under article 41(1) of this convention there is no immunity for him. Following are some facts in this regard;
i)- Former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi has now confirmed that Raymond was appointed in US consulate in Lahore and same was in record of the Pakistan’s Foreign Office. The intimation of US embassy on January 20, 2010 was not accepted by the Foreign Office. Stance of Foreign Office of the host state has finality even in accordance with articles 9, 10 and 11 of VCDR 1961.
ii)- Raymond Davis told the top police investigators that he was appointed in US Consulate in Lahore.
iii)- Immediately after his arrest when some junior police officials asked him the exact question, “Whether you are appointed in US embassy” and he replied, “No. I am appointed in US Consulate.”
iv)- On January 27, 2011, the day of incident, US Consulate issued an official press release clearly stating that Raymond Davis is an ‘employ’ of US Consulate in Lahore.
- It happened only on third day of the incident that US embassy came on scene and issued a press release stating for the first time that Raymond was a US embassy employee. It was clearly at attempt to get VCDR of 1961 forcefully applied on Raymond so he can enjoy immunity from the heinous crime he committed.
- Either it is VCDR of 1961 or VCCR of 1963, the nomination notified by the embassy of the sending state must have nod/approval of the Foreign Ministry of the host state and if Foreign Ministry didn’t accredit any nomination due to any reasons no immunity could be claimed. The Article 9, Article 10 and Article 11 of the VCDR are very clear in this regard. However, the point of view of US embassy is this that they have notified the name of Raymond Davis to Foreign Office on January 20, 2010 where he was showed as member of the ‘administrative and technical staff’ so it has fulfilled its duty. But, the Foreign Office says it has never accepted this January 20, 2011 intimation and had objected on this in view of its doubts on ‘working’ and ‘duties’ of Raymond Davis and nine other similar personnel. “On not getting response from the US embassy a formal NOTE VERBALE was sent to US embassy on July 8, 2010 which bear objections on Raymond Davis and nine other,” says top Foreign Office officials. They say this very letter showed that Foreign Ministry has never accepted intimation of the US embassy regarding Raymond’s appointment in embassy.
- The most powerful evidence which Pakistan’s Foreign Office official have against the changing stances of American embassy and threatening attitude are two letters; one of January 25, 2011 and the second of January 28, 2011 (One day after incident). In January 25, 2011 letter (two days before the incident) US embassy sent Foreign Office a list of officials of US embassy whom cases were still pending for final accreditation and approval of the Foreign Office. This letter didn’t contain name of Raymond Davis and which according to Foreign Office officials clearly establish that US embassy after Foreign Office objections on Raymond conceded him as an employee of US Consulate in Lahore due to any reasons best known to them. They say that one day after the incident on January 28, 2011 another letter from US embassy solved the whole mystery. According to top Foreign Office officials this letter contained the name of Raymond Davis to be accredited as employee of the embassy by Foreign Office. “Obviously the letter was sent with the sense the Foreign Office will ‘obey the order’ but it was not done. And this very letter the biggest evidence that Washington is fully satisfied by itself that VCDR of 1961 is not applied in case of Raymond Davis as he was not accredited by Pakistani Foreign Office so it admitted the same in its January 28, 2011 letter and also started threats and other tactics,” to achieve its purpose.
- All this legal position establish that VCDR of 1961 could only be applied if the Foreign Office has acknowledged any intimation and in case of Raymond Foreign Office never issued any accreditation nor any card needed for the claim of this immunity.
- Even in USA, US State Department has the same procedure. A manual of guidelines for the law enforcement and judiciary issued by State Department in September 2010 clearly tells the concerned judicial authorities that until and unless any person claiming immunity doesn’t possess accreditation card issued by the US State Department also contains the immunity instruction, he will not be obliged with any kind of immunity. “Even if the person claiming immunity has this US State Department issued card with immunity instructions, the concerned authorities are bound to contact US State Department to verify the status of the person claiming immunity under Vienna Convention,” the US State Department document says. The same is the practice in all the country regarding implementation of the VCDR of 1961 or VCCR of 1963.

http://old.thenews.com.pk/15-02-2011/ethenews/t-4012.htm

 

 

 


 
 Reply:   Davis vs Afia
Replied by(Asym) Replied on (14/Feb/2011)

Momentum is being built for release of Davis. The cry now is to release Davis in exchange of Afia. But Afia has been prounounced guilty by US court whilst Davis has still to undergo trial in Pakistan. Also Afia did not kill anyone but Davis shot two pakistanis. Why are they being linked. The apparent reason being to create an environment for Davis's release. To make hiis release possible by linking it with Afia. After all how could he be released without first creating hue and cry and checking the public pulse.
 
 Reply:   Some More Updates or Raymond Davis
Replied by(turkman) Replied on (13/Feb/2011)

But how would you hide all these lies and your crazy attitude in front of God, who knows, what's in your hearts?
 
 Reply:   stupidity or covert operation
Replied by(Asym) Replied on (13/Feb/2011)

As the further developments are taking place, it seems that the killing of two pakistani men by Davis was not merely a one off criminal offence but an act done deliberately to create a situation of anarchy and confrontation within pak government, courts and most importantly fanning hatered towards the state amongst pak public. The whole event has the potential of creating great anarchy within Pakistan. Also the timing of the event is important, as the world is going to witness a hostile arab govt. in Eygpt i.e. the planted Muslim Brotherhood which would eventually provoke Israel to take on Eygpt. It has been equally important to simultaneoulsy create anarchy and cripple pakistan in this region. We as people have to realize there are sinister plans which are now in full swing devised by our enemies to destroy us. It beats me why would a trained special agent act so stupidily otherwise
 
 Reply:   Qureshi says Raymond is not a diplomat
Replied by(International_Professor) Replied on (13/Feb/2011)

Qureshi says Raymond is not a diplomat

Updated at 0030 PST Sunday, February 13, 2011

ISLAMABAD: Former Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi has ruled out providing the kind of immunity to Raymond Davis which US called for, adding that the suspect is not a diplomat in Pakistan, Geo News reported.

Talking to Jang Group’s senior journalist, Ansar Abbasi, Qureshi said that Raymond Davis was not a US diplomat according to Pakistan’s official record as Foreign Ministry has searched out complete documents, dismissing likelihood of immunity for suspect, which US demanded from Pakistan.

Former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said in categorical terms that as per the official record and advice given to him by experts in the Foreign Office, the American double murderer Raymond Davis is not a diplomat and cannot be given blanket diplomatic immunity.

“The kind of blanket immunity Washington is pressing for Davis, is not endorsed by the official record of the Foreign Ministry,” Qureshi said in a brief chat with The News.

Qureshi was reluctant to talk in detail on the issue, but when requested to offer his brief comment, he said: “On the basis of the official record and the advice given to me by the technocrats and experts of the Foreign Office, I could not certify him (Raymond Davis) as a diplomat”.

Qureshi was approached after the Foreign Ministry sources said he spoke on the issue of Davis during his farewell speech in the FO.

Separately, sources in the Foreign Office revealed to The News that the Foreign Ministry on the basis of its record had already concluded that Raymond Davis was neither a diplomat nor enjoying blanket diplomatic immunity, but it was Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, who had strictly asked the Foreign Ministry not to utter a word on the issue.

“Even in an inter-ministerial meeting held at the Foreign Office, it was agreed that Davis could not be handed over to America,” the source said, disclosing that Davis was never registered in the Foreign Office record even as a non-diplomatic staff as certain queries sent to the US Embassy remained unanswered.

The sources said on January 25, 2011, the US Embassy sent a list of its outstanding cases regarding the status of its officials and diplomats for settlement and to issue them the diplomatic identity card, but it did not include the name of Raymond Davis.

On 28th of January, a day after Raymond Davis killed two Pakistanis in broad daylight in Lahore, the US Embassy again sent the list of outstanding cases to the Foreign Ministry, but this time the list included the name of Raymond Davis.

This fact, the sources said, simply belies the Washington’s stance on blanket immunity for Davis. According to the Vienna Convention, a diplomat or staff sought by the sending state to be provided diplomatic immunity is required to be notified as such by the Foreign Ministry of the receiving state. It was not done in case of Davis.

Foreign Office sources fear that with the departure of respected Qureshi from the Foreign Ministry, an effort may be made to fudge the official record to the pleasure of Washington. It is worth mentioning here that Shah Mehmood Qureshi sacrificed his important cabinet slot for standing firm on the issue of Davis and for refusing to succumb to the kind of pressure that was exerted on him to release and hand over Davis to the Americans.

“This proud son of Pakistan asked us to go by the law and as per the record of the Foreign Ministry,” a senior Foreign Ministry source said, apprehending the things might not remain the same as they had been under Shah Mehmood Qureshi.

The ministry sources said Qureshi on Saturday paid a farewell visit to the Foreign Ministry where he was shown utmost respect by all and sundry. He also spoke to the ministry officials and, according to sources, there too he touched upon the Davis issue and said his position on Davis’s case is the finding of the Foreign Ministry.

The sources said although the Foreign Ministry was asked (by Gilani) to keep a complete mum on the subject, it was Interior Minister Rehman Malik, who instead, was mandated to speak on the issue. The outgoing foreign minister, the sources said, has been telling the Americans that Davis could not be released or handed over to the Americans as the matter is now with the courts.

A Foreign Ministry official dealing with the American desk, confided to this correspondent that they were asked by the outgoing minister to place all the record pertaining to Davis with the courts and then leave it for the courts to decide if he could be given the kind of immunity that Washington is desperately seeking for him.
After the arrest of Davis, the Foreign Ministry in particular and the government of Pakistan and Punjab in general faced all sorts of pressures from the United States for the immediate release of the American killer.

However, it was the independent judiciary of the country that gave utmost strength to the rulers, who are telling the Americans to wait for a court decision and that nothing could be settled outside the courtroom.

Recently, the US congressmen, who met the authorities here, including the president, indicated of possible aid cut for Pakistan if Raymond Davis is not handed over to the Americans. On this issue, a Foreign Ministry source said the bullying tactics of the Americans negate their public posturing for long-term strategic relationship.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=11061

 


 
 Reply:   Media’s sudden Hysteria – Raymond Davis
Replied by(International_Professor) Replied on (12/Feb/2011)

Media’s sudden Hysteria – Raymond Davis

Everybody knows who is behind in creation of sudden hysteria on TV channels that:

If U.S. would stop cash on war of terror, God forbid Pakistan will die.

If War of terror is stopped Mullah’s would occupy Pakistan.

If aid to our army would stop those would die with hunger.

If remaining 16th F-16 stopped by U.S. would not be supplied, India would invade on Pakistan.

Raymond Davis was head of Lashkar e Jhangvi. So, he must be released immediately.

Don’t be emotional, emotions would destroy our nation. Pakistani’s died is not big issue, however if we would not receive American aid we will eat grass.

Anybody who is talking about justice is anarchist; any crowd talking about dead Pakistani’s is shinning politics.

Mumtaz Qadri was murderer but Raymond Davis is not murderer.

Zardari has funnelled billions to media; just click today’s a few talk shows of Jang Group, Dawn TV, Dunya TV and Express TV. Why suddenly tone of media is changed. Foreign agents like Najam Sethi, Mush sympathizers like Moeed Pirzada, Abdul Rouf of 50 minutes, PPP’s Anwar Baig and many others have suddenly revealed that If U.S. would not give dollars than peoples would die with hunger.

Don’t be fool; it is last try of liberal fascists, and foreign funded NGO’s, prostitution gangs and panic in the circles of all of those who have overseas properties.

We have no problem if U.S. money to Pakistan army is stopped, because it is nothing to do with public, peoples are hungry and naked. However stoppage of dollars would reduce pomp and show of elite class. We are happy that if Husain Haqqani is kicked out of U.S. It would be great help of U.S. administration as he is not ambassador of Pakistan, a Pakistani ambassador at Washington would act for promotion of bi-lateral relations between U.S. and Pakistan. Anarchic is in the interest of Haqqani, because billion of dollars of properties of Zardari and Farahnaz Isfahani are protected just due to war of terror.

Zardari needs a kick now, don’t listen to liberal fascists. Read the following report of today.

 

Is Presidency pushing for backdated immunity to Raymond?

ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari has asked the Foreign Office in categorical terms that Raymond Davis should be given diplomatic immunity and for this purpose the Foreign Office should immediately issue a backdated letter notifying Raymond as ‘member of staff in US embassy, Islamabad’, top Foreign Office officials confirmed to The News.
After taking lengthy briefings and having some decisive meetings with US officials, the Presidency has told the Foreign Ministry in categorical words that for granting diplomatic immunity to Raymond Davis, all preparations should be finalized immediately.
But while the Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit maintained a very cool “No comment” on the subject, the Presidency stonewalled all requests for a version and the outspoken and unofficial spokesperson of President Zardari Senator Faisal Raza Abidi said he would not say anything but the Foreign Office should be asked to comment. So the ball was thrown back to the “No Comments” of the FO.
Sources close to Presidency, however, rejected the report. They said detractors of President Zardari are behind this baseless allegation. They said the Presidency can never ask Foreign Office to do anything illegal.
Privately senior FO officials are ready to share many details. “It was clarified to the president that as per record of the Foreign Office, Raymond Davis was a member of ‘consular staff in US Consulate in Lahore’ so in accordance with Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963, he did not enjoy absolute immunity especially in the case of a grave crime and that now according to article 41(1) of the same convention of 1963 only superior court could decide the issue of immunity of Raymond Davis,” a top Foreign Office source told this scribe.
“The president, who has taken briefings from US side as well, has advised us to issue a backdated letter showing Raymond Davis as ‘member of the staff of US embassy in Islamabad’ so that 1963 Vienna Convention could not apply on him and as member of the US embassy-Islamabad he may fall in the domain of Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961 and thus could claim immunity from criminal jurisdiction,” the FO official said.
The official explained that under Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961, all the diplomatic and non-diplomatic (administrative and technical) staff appointed in an embassy enjoys immunity from criminal jurisdiction whereas under Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963, the consular staff appointed in consular posts or consulates in cities other than capitals of the host states didn’t have immunity from criminal jurisdiction especially in cases of grave crimes.
The FO official confirmed to The News that as per record of the Foreign Office on the day of incident of killing of three Pakistanis in Lahore, Raymond was a member of consular staff in US consulate. The sources said that Raymond also spent some time in Islamabad and Peshawar but was later appointed as member of technical staff in US Consulate in Lahore.
The official disclosed that US embassy in Pakistan has requested The Foreign Office to include the name of Raymond Davis in the list of diplomats, a request which was ignored. The top official further revealed that US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made the same request to former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi on phone which was also softly refused by giving the excuse that now the issue was in court.
The official said the status of Raymond Davis that he was a “member of the consular staff in US Consulate Lahore” was clear to all and he himself after being arrested told the Lahore police and all investigators who had encounters with him that he was appointed as technical consultant in US Consulate Lahore.
“On the day of incident, the US Consulate came on record and stated on media that Raymond was member of consular staff at US Consulate Lahore,” the top Foreign Office official said adding “Neither Raymond’s name was in the list of the diplomats maintained at Foreign Office and updated regularly nor he was ever issued a mandatory diplomatic card by the Foreign Office which is a must for claiming immunity not only in Pakistan but also in USA,” the senior official added.
In privately taped footage inside the police station, released to Geo TV on Friday, Raymond himself admits very clearly that he was a ‘consultant’ at the Lahore Consulate.
A FO source said it was only on the third day of the incident that after becoming aware that there were no chances of saving Raymond in double murder case, US embassy in Islamabad issued press release claiming Raymond as member of the US embassy which was a baseless thing.
The Foreign Office official showed this scribe official documents of US Department of State instructing members of US law enforcement agencies and US judiciary to not to grant immunity to any person, claimed to be diplomat, until he didn’t possess a special card issued by the department of state.
He said as per article 10(1) of the even 1961 convention, the notification of Foreign Office accrediting a person as diplomat or enjoying any level of immunity is a must. The official maintained that in no way any such inclusion in the list of accredited diplomats could be made retrospectively nor could Raymond be issued a card now which could certify his immunity.
“On the other hand we have received strict orders to issue a back-dated letter showing Raymond as member of US embassy, Islamabad,” the official said adding, “As the issue was in court and courts are analysing each and every aspect of all documents, no one in Foreign Office is ready to accept this big challenge.”
He said even the outgoing foreign minister has hinted that this backdated letter containing admission of Foreign Office having record of Raymond’s appointment in USA embassy will have to be made and produced before the courts as it was an order.
Spokesman of the presidency Farhatullah Babar neither took the call nor replied to The News sent the questions through messages. He was asked simply to verify or deny the latest presidency’s pressure on Foreign Office to issue a backdated letter showing Raymond as member of the US embassy in Islamabad, but he never responded.
However, advisor to the President Zardari, Faisal Raza Abidi when asked this question by The News said that only Foreign Office will speak on this issue.
On the other hand spokesperson of US embassy Courtney Beale, when approached by The News replied as follows: “It is wrong information that US embassy approached Foreign Office of Pakistan to get registered name of the Raymond Davis in list of accredited diplomats. In fact US embassy Islamabad had notified to Foreign Office back in January 2010 that Raymond Davis has arrived in Pakistan and he will serve as member of technical staff in USA Embassy Islamabad. Raymond was later temporarily sent to Lahore.”
Foreign Office officials however deny having any such information and say according to record and information available with it, Raymond was working as member of consular staff in US Consulate Lahore.
A senior FO official gave the example of US Foreign Service officer Sabrina de Sousa, who was appointed in US embassy in Rome, Italy in 1999. “De Sousa was later deputed in US consulate in Milan, Italy in 2001 and was found allegedly involved in an incident of extraordinary rendition (kidnapping) in 2003. She left Italy in 2004 and her involvement in the kidnapping incident was investigated later. Though she was sent and appointed in US embassy in Rome but at the time of incident she was deputed at US consulate in Milan thus US didn’t plead for her immunity as a diplomat as she was representing the US consulate in Milan. It was a consular office and had no immunity in grave crimes like kidnapping,” the official said.
According to De Sousa’s media statements, she was unable to move outside USA as she will be arrested by EUROPOL as she will land on any European airport.
Courtney Beale, however, said that she was unaware of the incident of De Sousa and will respond to The News soon as to why USA did not demand immunity for her from Italy on charges of kidnapping despite the fact she also was appointed in US embassy in Rome.

http://old.thenews.com.pk/12-02-2011/ethenews/t-3952.htm

 


 
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