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"Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong; they are the ones to attain felicity".
(surah Al-Imran,ayat-104)
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User Name: Usman_Khalid
Full Name: Brig (R) Usman Khalid
User since: 20/Sep/2007
No Of voices: 155
 
 Views: 3541   
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Pakistan Imperilled by an Inept Ruler Once Again

 

By Usman Khalid

 

 

All day yesterday (15 January) all TV Channels in Pakistan were broadcasting a "re-assuring message" from the President of Pakistan who said that  "Al-Qaida does not have the military strength or popularity" to take over Pakistan. I was reminded of General Yahya Khan who used to appear on our TV Screen in 1971 regularly and say, "I will not allow anyone to play with the integrity of Pakistan". I was one of the two dozen DS (Direction Staff) at the Staff College in Quetta. Every time he said that, several of us watching him added in chorus (but obviously in jest), "I will destroy the country myself".  President Yahya Khan (YK) did not want to break up the country but we rightly feared that is precisely what he would end up doing. It was not just the DS in the Staff College who feared that; the entire Army did. Yet, the Army Brass was unwilling to take measures to save the country. General Gul Hassan, the Chief of General Staff at the time, persuaded General Yahya Khan to resign and invited Zulfikar Ali Bhutto to take over as President only after Pakistan had been defeated and East Pakistan over-run by the Indian Army.   

 

General Musharraf was called YK2 (Yahya Khan the 2nd) as early as year 2000(after the millennium bug that was called Y2K). But this particularly bug (YK2) suited the powers that be for the purpose they had and he has bugged Pakistan ever since. It only became apparent in 2007 what the purpose was.  That purpose is the disintegration of Pakistan once again. That purpose cannot be achieved without another Yahya Khan. Thy have found one in the person of Musharraf. While we imitated Yahya Khan in jest to add, "I will destroy the country myself", no one thinks that to be a joke in 2008. Pakistan was split into two in 1971 because it was led by a person with no legitimacy or popularity while an Indian Agent "“ Sheikh Mujib - who clearly enjoyed much popularity, had been equipped with legitimacy in consequence of 1971 Elections his party swept in East Pakistan. Musharraf is even more unpopular than YK. He is an "illegitimate President" who sacked Sixty Judges of the Supreme and the High Courts when he feared that the Supreme Court Bench who was hearing the case against him, might uphold the law and declare his election as President while in uniform as unlawful. 

 

The question before the civil society and the people of Pakistan is: should they leave it to the new COAS to enforce the law and the constitution, which might come too late or not at all, or should they do whatever they can to save the country from disintegration? The civil society institutions have to come forward; at the very least, they can remove the confusion and provide direction that the political parties have failed to provide. But first, we have to understand the objectives and the modus operandi of the "˜enemy'. Ironically, that has been described clearly not by a Pakistani person or organisation but by a Canadian person and his Think Tank - Prof. Michel Chossudovsky of Global Research. In a paper titled "˜The Destabilisation of Pakistan', he reveals that the US sees an opportunity to redraw the frontiers of Pakistan in accordance with the map of the "˜Larger Middle East' published in the article "Blood Borders" by Colonel Ralph Peters of the US Army. In this map, Afghanistan get the NWFP and North Baluchistan, a new state "˜Balochistan' is carved out of Iranian and Pakistani Baluchistan, and the rest of Pakistan becomes vassal states of India.

 

The USA does not care who does it for them "“ the Islamists or ethnic nationalists. They have seen that the  "˜actions' of both serve their purpose even though the Islamists (who are for Khilafa and Sharia) are sworn enemies of ethnic nationalists. As long as they weaken the central authority of the state they help America. The USA aids Baitullah Mehsud as well as the BLA, the Mirzais (also known as Qadianis) as well as the MQM (the core of which are Shia from the Indian state of Bihar). Like in 1971, the result of the forthcoming elections, the Americans hope, would pave the way for the disintegration of Pakistan. The priority of the PPP is to secure UN intervention; those who have boycotted elections are determined to start an agitation whatever the election results; and Musharraf will do whatever necessary in order to restore the MQM-PML(Q) to power. It is only PML N) that is steady in its objective of 'estoration of independence of the Judiciary'. The majority of politicians thus help the USA and Musharraf to achieve their objective. The paper by Prof. Michel Chossudovsky reveals what and why? It says:

"Washington will push for a compliant political leadership, with no commitment to the national interest, a leadership which will serve US imperial interests, while concurrently contributing under the disguise of "decentralization", to the weakening of the central government and the fracture of Pakistan's fragile federal structure." 

On America's objective, it says, "The political impasse is deliberate. It is part of an evolving US foreign policy agenda, which favours disruption and disarray in the structures of the Pakistani State. Indirect rule by the Pakistani military is to be replaced by more direct forms of US interference, including an expanded US military presence inside Pakistan, which is also dictated by the Middle East-Central Asia geopolitical situation and Washington's ongoing plans to extend the Middle East war to a much broader area." 

The paper reveals: "The US has several military bases in Pakistan. It controls the country's air space. According to a recent report: U.S. Special Forces are expected to vastly expand their presence in Pakistan, as part of an effort to train and support indigenous counter-insurgency forces and clandestine counter-terrorism units. The official justification and pretext for an increased military presence in Pakistan is to extend the "˜war on terrorism'. Concurrently, to justify its counter-terrorism program, Washington is also beefing up its covert support to the "˜terrorists.'

It might be shocking for many to know that the USA is actually helping the terrorists. But they are much more motivated and hence cost-effective; the "˜ethnic nationalists' need more (money) and do much less. The USA is behind the insurgency in the FATA region of Pakistan because it weakens the control of the federal government over Pakistan much more than the BLA or the MQM. However, in the US scheme of things, those who do more do not always get more. In fact, those who fight the best to help them succeed become their first next target. After the USA has secured the disintegration of Pakistan, it will place ethnic nationalist in power. That is why ethnic nationalists have to be liquidated on priority basis even though they are neither very active nor very effective. A few Baloch tribes with age-old contacts with the West, and the core of the MQM who are their newfound friends, are their surrogates like the Awami League was in East Pakistan in 1971.

 

The civil society was neither coherent nor effective in raising its voice against Yahya Khan in 1971. But in 2007, the power of the "˜free press' and the "˜independent judiciary' in upholding the 'ule of law' was demonstrated powerfully. Musharraf has had to flout the constitution blatantly, dismiss and incarcerate sixty members of the bench and all the office holders and eminent members of the bar, and close down Geo TV "“ the most popular news channel - from being broadcast in Pakistan, in order to stage manage the forthcoming elections. Still, it is well nigh impossible to bring the subservient PML(Q) to power. But he hopes to secure the support of those not overly concerned with "˜national interests  - the MQM, the ANP, the Baloch Nationalists and the JUI under the overall leadership of the PPP. The USA assures him that that the PPP is too eager for a share in power to be much concerned with "˜national interests'.

 

Can Musharraf be stopped? Can Pakistan be saved from disintegration? Can the USA be frustrated? The answer is, yes! But no one person or one party can meet the challenge alone; all the patriotic politicians together with the institutions of the civil society can frustrate the diabolical conspiracy being hatched around Pakistan. First of all it is the people, then the institutions of the state and civil society, and finally the patriotic politicians, who must act in unison to succeed where we failed in 1971.  How?

 

The People

 

  1. The elections of 18 February are the key. In these elections, the people should vote for the party that is committed to the restorations of the Judges who refused to take oath on the PCO on 3 November 2007. PML(N) is already committed to this as the "˜top point of its agenda'. The voters should seek similar commitment from their party before they vote. PML (Q) and MQM voted for the PCO in the last National Assembly. To vote for them is to vote for accomplices in a crime "“ crime of "˜high treason'. The people should know that return of PML (Q) and MQM to power would lead to the "˜disintegration' of Pakistan.  
  2. The people should not respond to calls by politicians for strikes or demonstrations. Politics is about voting for a new government not dying for it. It is unthinkable in the UK "“ mother of parliamentary democracy "“ for a political party to organise a procession or to call for a strike. It is the pressure groups that organise demonstrations. Political parties only have meetings where candidates canvass for votes. The mayhem caused by processions and a tehrik invariably end up providing an excuse to the military, or a mafia and their foreign patrons to intervene in Pakistan.

 

The Civil Society

 

  1. The organisations of the civil society should continue to campaign for the restoration of an "˜independent judiciary' and a "˜free press'. During the period before elections, they should seek support from political parties for this agenda and extend support to the political parties to the degree that they get support from them.  
  2. Publicise the agenda and modus operandi of the foreign enemies of Pakistan and their local accomplices who weaken the unity of the people and the integrity of the state, and undermine its institutions "“executive transparency, sovereignty of the parliament, and independence of the judiciary. It is the duty of every citizen to expose the public enemies and not to be intimidated by them.
  3. Explain that the agenda of Takfir and the "˜theology of liberation' have become fused causing huge torment, suffering and confusion not just in Pakistan but elsewhere in the Muslim world as well. Struggle for liberation by the peoples of occupied lands is legitimate; the effort of the takfiri to coerce people into intolerance and cruelty in the name of Islam, undermining the solidarity of the people and the authority of state is a rebellion that must be ruthlessly crushed.   

 

Political Parties

 

  1. The PPP should withdraw its call for UN intervention in investigations of the assassination of its leader "“ Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto. Such intervention would only give an excuse to the USA to send its troops into Pakistan that it so eagerly wants.
  2. PML(N) should continue its commitment to honour and restore the Judges dismissed by General Musharaf on 3 November 2007. The party should express readiness to welcome deserting members of PML (Q) and urge candidates in elections to return PML(Q) tickets and fight elections as "˜independents', on PML(N) tickets or not at all.
  3. MQM is beyond redemptions. However, those contesting elections on PML(Q) tickets can return their tickets. They may not be able to save their security deposits but they can save their life, honour and their reputation by spurning those whose agenda "“ wittingly or unwittingly "“ is the "˜disintegration of Pakistan.
  4. JI and PTI should refrain from agitation after the elections. They made a mistake boycotting elections; they should live with it.

 

President Musharraf

 

  1. In the unlikely event of him realising that his illegitimacy and unpopularity has raised hopes in the enemy camp to break up Pakistan, he can resign and allow the Constitution to be followed in letter and spirit. This will allow the restoration of the Judges dismissed by him on 3 November, and the Speaker of the Senate becoming the figurehead President and a neutral interim administration and Election Commission to be set up that meets the approval of all the main political parties.

 

The Armed Forces

 

11.  They should stay out of politics, fight the takfiri and ethnic rebels, identify and isolate subversives, support liberation struggles by Muslims for self-determination and tell the people what they are doing, how and why?

 

Pakistan has matured politically over the last few decades and its people have learnt not to hope for a messiah to lead them out of the stagnation that inept rulers have brought upon them. It was noticeable that the public showed up in great numbers with enthusiasm to support of the Chief Justice who had upheld the law and protected the poor in the face of intimidation by the executive. It was also noticeable that neither the people nor the press could be intimidated by the hooded thugs of the MQM and the civil police who stopped the CJ from visiting the High Court in Karachi.  On 27 December 2007, when Mohtarma Nenzir Bhutto was assassinated, the RAW supported elements went on rampage in the province of Sindh but the people showed restraint. The mayhem opened the eyes of Sindhis to the dangers they face. India considers Sindh as the soft belly of Pakistan where it can replicate the events of 1971 in East Pakistan. Friends as well as foes of Pakistan are drawing parallels with the fateful year of 1971 albeit with different objectives and emphasis. But the Pakistanis are wide awake. 

 

America has succeeded in countries where the civil society institutions were not strong because of one party rule or endemic anarchy "“ Iraq and Afghanistan. In those two countries the people knew only of armed resistance as means to fight excess or occupation. In Pakistan, the lawyers and the journalists have shown grit and determination as instruments of resistance. Retired public servants "“ civil or military "“ also must come to the fore as a civil society organisation. This is vital not only to strengthen the civil society, but also to raise the low morale of their serving compatriots who suffer insecurity because public servants have been treated as private servants of the politicians.  

 

I believe Musharraf will go soon rather than late. But I want him to go in consequence of the pressure exerted on him by the civil society, in consequence of impeachment by the parliament, NOT in consequence of a tehrik that Qazi Hussain Ahmed or Imran Khan want to organise, NOT in consequence of another debacles on the battlefield, NOT in consequence of the disintegration of Pakistan. The easiest and the surest way to prevent the disaster YK2 is leading us towards, is for the people to vote only for those parties in the next elections that support honouring and reinstating the Judges who refused to take oath on the PCO.

 

Everybody can do something; some can do a lot; but the key is to restore the independence of the Judiciary.  We face many dangers and we can overcome all of them. But the beginning has to be made with restoration of our sovereignty and rededicating ourselves to the rule of law internally as well as internationally.

 

The writer is Director London Institute of South Asia 

 Reply:   The Stupidity Never Ends So I
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (29/Jan/2008)

Why don't you try to correct me, this is not an excuse, i gave you ayaa, and i gave you meaning and i elaborate hadith with it, if you think i am wrong then go ahead and correct me. 18 years of education in Saudi doesn't mean religious education.
Smart Ass comment so here is the answer; Start another discussion about this and I will try to get the answer into your think head.
 
Not every thing needs fatwa, and not every fatwa is right and not every fatwa is obligatory to every one, you live in Saudi, there woman cant go alone, woman cant drive, woman cant cast vote, so should Musharraf and America start war against them as well, ?
There you go, this what you really are, YOU PICK AND CHOOSE. I accepted your comments about the beard because you had given proof. Which by the way was from the fatwa given by the late and respected Bin Baz. Now, since the other fatwas go against your hateful and dajjal-loving Taliban and Al-Qaeda, you will not accept it. Do you know what the word Munafiq means? Since you once again have NO idea of what you are talking about, I'll explain it to you. You said no fatwa is obligatory to everyone. What BULLSHIT! What are you, a Qadiyani or a Biralvi? If you are not, then the FATWA BY THE HIGHEST MUSLIM SCHOLARS IS OBLIGATORY ON YOU! TRY TO HIDE FROM THIS FACT AND YOU ONLY FOOL YOURSELF. By the way, no fatwa was ever passed on women traveling alone or not being able to drive or vote, where do you get this crap from? King Abdullah just passed a royal decree allowing women to travel and stay alone in hotels. Furthermore, he said that he ready to allow women to drive once the culture has become more acceptable to the concept. The prohibitions are cultural, NOT religious. Get your facts right before you start blabbing your mouth.

This is the worst pathetic answer one has to hear from the mouth of pro-musharraf people (u think this never happened before, if every thing has to continue in same way, then what the hell he has deliver). Now you have said every country has its own problem and every country needs time to fix those, why this excuse you never tried to give in favor of Taliban. even though when Taliban took control of Afghanistan they were in no where, but when Musharraf took control, Pakistan was in better position then today. He got every blessing from the west, but in the end, he delivers shit to Pakistan. Whether you except or not, he is curse of Allah on Pakistani people.
Why is it pathetic if it is a fact. You the hell do you want the government to do everything for you. Pakistanis are a lazy, corrupt and dumb people. They lie and cheat at work, give and accept bribes, treat poor people like animals and try their best to climb over each other in life. How can the government fix problems of the heart? If the army tries people like you who have their political and corrupt agendas moan like little children that the government is being too hard. You statement that Pakistan was in a better shape when Musharraf took power reflects your arrogance of the facts and figures. Do you want me to post the number here? Let me know, I will be more than happy because I have them. Pakistan today is in a much better shape economically and as regards to the infrastructure than when Nawaz zaleel was in power. You will not win on this point because the numbers are not there to support. Now on the question why this progress has not trickled down to the masses is another matter of debate. Pakistani people today have a higher GDP then 10 years ago, and that is adjusting for inflation. There are not all winners in a society, some people always loose out. Don't be a damn socialist and expect the government to do everything for you. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR YOUR FELLOW PAKISTANI? You want to enforce your version of Islamo-Fascism, but WHAT ARE YOUR DAJJAL-LOVING TALIBAAN'S PLAN FOR HELPING THE PEOPLE, NOTHING!!!! I tell you what it is, be-headings, public hangings, beatings, beggars on the streets, and no modern education for anyone, that's what your plan is. How dare you compare the Pakistani government to the Taliban criminal government? We are much better than your Dajjal-Loving masters, and Pakistan is in much better hands and in a much better shape.  
 
Keep your fingers cross,
Sorry Buddy, I am Alhamdulillah a Muslim and I DO NOT CROSS MY FINGERS....

 
 Reply:   One more thing i want to adds
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (29/Jan/2008)
.

Every country in the world has its own law, there are many countries where there is ban on scarf only Nuns can wear scarfs? but no one from the Muslims or non-Muslims ever tried to make voice against this law, why?

In UK there is freedom of expression and you can say anything about any religion, latest example Muloon Salman  Rushdie, but you cant say anything about Holocaust?
 
(there are hundreds of other examples as well)
 
Why, Because this is their internal matter?
 
Then why every one, from Muslims and non Muslims , are pointing fingers on Talibaan for forcing women to wear scarf/veil etc?
 
Please think about it and view this link as well.
 

 
 Reply:   Your answer is typical of peop
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (29/Jan/2008)
I also don't want this discussion to go on for life, so end it here
I also don't want this discussion to go on for life, so end it here, but read my last reply as well.
 
I spent over 18 years of my life in religious education in Saudi Arabia. So please don't try to explain the meaning of aayahs to me. What you are writing about that Aayah is typical of the shallow understanding of Islam that prevails in Pakistan and other Asian countires.
Why don't you try to correct me, this is not an excuse, i gave you ayaa, and i gave you meaning and i elaborate hadith with it, if you think i am wrong then go ahead and correct me. 18 years of education in Saudi doesn't mean religious education.
 
The concepts you are trying to teach here on this site have already been prohibited and declared haram in numerous Fatwas by the late Sheikh Bin Baz, Sheikh Ali Al-Hudaifi and other such Grand Muftis of Islam. If you choose not to believe or follow them, then that is on your Eman.... From today I choose not to say anything about religion to you directly...
Not every thing needs fatwa, and not every fatwa is right and not every fatwa is obligatory to every one, you live in saudia, there woman cant go alone, woman cant drive, woman cant cast vote, so should Musharraf and America start war against them as well, ?

The story about the children is indeed very sad. However, You think this did not happen before in Pakistan? Every country has it's problem and the poor always suffer in every country of the world. You have chosen the path to demonize President Musharraf. Whereas, on the other hand, most of us believe that there are of course problems in his administration, but he is the best so far.
This is the worst pathetic answer one has to hear from the mouth of pro-musharraf people (u think this never happened before, if every thing has to continue in same way, then what the hell he has deliver). Now you have said every country has its own problem and every country needs time to fix those, why this excuse you never tried to give in favor of Talibaan. even though when Talibaan took control of Afghanistan they were in no where, but when Musharraf took control, Pakistan was in better position then today. He got every blessing from the west, but in the end, he delivers shit to Pakistan. Whether you except or not, he is curse of Allah on Pakistani people.
 
We will support him and eradicate Al-Qaeda and Talibaan terrorists from Pakistan. There is nothing you, or anyone else can do about it beacuase Allah is with us and not with barbaric people such as the Talibaan.
Keep your fingers cross, in the end the real win will be of Allah. i just want Islam to prevail and Muslims to prosper. The decision is in the hand of Allah and we will see.
In the end just want to clear one more thing, when ever i said Talibaan, i never meant Talibaan of Pakistan or Al-Qaeda.

 
 Reply:   Noman: My last direct reply to
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (29/Jan/2008)

I spent over 18 years of my life in religious education in Saudi Arabia. So please don't try to explain the meaning of aayahs to me. What you are writing about that Aayah is typical of the shallow understanding of Islam that prevails in Pakistan and other Asian countires. The concepts you are trying to teach here on this site have already been prohibited and declared haram in numerous Fatwas by the late Sheikh Bin Baz, Sheikh Ali Al-Hudaifi and other such Grand Muftis of Islam. If you choose not to believe or follow them, then that is on your Eman.... From today I choose not to say anything about religion to you directly...

The story about the children is indeed very sad. However, You think this did not happen before in Pakistan? Every country has it's problem and the poor always suffer in every country of the world. You have chosen the path to demonize President Musharraf. Whereas, on the other hand, most of us believe that there are of course problems in his administration, but he is the best so far. We will support him and eradicate Al-Qaeda and Talibaan terrorists from Pakistan. There is nothing you, or anyone else can do about it beacuase Allah is with us and not with barbaric people such as the Talibaan.

 
 Reply:   I am only trying to reply your
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (29/Jan/2008)
.
where did I say that my source for believing that 9/11 was done by your other devil worshipper brothers from Ql-Qaeda was Musharraf? You are such an arrogant person, I feel like I am wasting my time reasoing with.
Then you please tell us yourself, which source you are believing regarding 9/11, you re not believing AL-Qaeda, neither International media, nor Muloon Musharraf and not other sources, then you please tell us what you believe.
I have given you few other links as well regarding 9/11 please try to go through them as well.
http://makepakistanbetter.com/why_how_what_forum.asp?GroupID=9&ArticleId=1572

You seem to have a habit to hiding from the questions. I only asked, if you love the Talibaan so much, don't you agree with what they stand for? And no, I will do no such thing as an honor killing, only arrogant people such as yourself do those things. Just from your sentence it is evident that you find no problem in the honor-killing concept.
I am giving you reply, line by line of your queries, and even then you end up in playing false blame game, can you please identify which questions i tried to hide? I love Talibaan, regarding Al-Qaeda, i even dont believe that there was/is any thing like them exist. I agree with them for wht they stand fr, but have my reservatios with few of their acts, because as i said earlier as no one is perfect but Talibaan is best among all which we have right now.


I agree with you on the beard part. Unlike you, I agree to what is the truth and truth only.
Thankyou, Jazzak Allah

Yes, find the polls, you will find them at talibaantheevildajjalworshippers.com.
Forget it, i will not going to ive any link to u, because you wont going to beleive anything, now on , i wont waste my time in doing research for u, but just for your info those poll results published in JUNG and Nawa-i-waqt s well.

And hey, crap-head, don't assume that I have not heard of "Amur bilmaroof waa nahi anilmukir"... Go read the meaning and tafsir of that aaya. It does not call for dragging people to Masjid, forcing them to grow beards, or beating people up in the streets for petty crimes or crimes that have yet to be committed. What do you know of Islamic law?
Will you please tell me, what you percieve from above aayaa, because whatever i will going to tell yo may be you wont believe. Here is just one example for you, Amar bilmaroof mean, order/tell/say other to do good thing, waa nahin aunil mukir means and stop them by doing wrong.
Now can you tell me what you understand by Stopping? for the definitaion of stopping here is one hadith, imaan ki teen haaltai hain, pehli jub koi bura kaam deko ussay haath say rokko, agur haath say roknay ki himut naa hoo, tou zubaan say rokko aur sub say kum tur haalut yeh hay kay dil may bura chahoo, so can you understand now what it means, these two things infact clearly ordered us to stop evil by any mean which one can afford.
But one thing i would like to add, why you again and again laming for the things which i even didnt say, g and read my replies again, i have said this thing in aomst all replies that individuals should nt force any one but government can and they should. so whatever talibaan did they did as a overnment policy not as indiviual acts.
AlhumdulilAllah, i know enough which can make me live a good islamic life, you tell me wht you wat to know.

People such as yourself are a real problem. You only think you know Islam. If the day of Judgement comes before you die, you'll find yourself in the armies of the dajjal and the jooj majooj.... Good luck to you.....
this is your own perception, i never think i even dont know enough islam which is neccesarry for me to know. Ohhh You are already in their army brother and i am trying to get you out. I will never let this happen inshahAllah.
 
And in the end one news item for you, from myside no commnts, but you please think bout this news in the light of hat you said regarding policies in your replues.
Thankyou for good wishes
 

 
 Reply:   Noman: Come to the pointscrip
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (28/Jan/2008)

Where did I say that my source for believing that 9/11 was done by your other devil worshipper brothers from Ql-Qaeda was Musharraf? You are such an arrogant person, I feel like I am wasting my time reasoing with.

You seem to have a habit to hiding from the questions. I only asked, if you love the Talibaan so much, don't you agree with what they stand for? And no, I will do no such thing as an honor killing, only arrogant people such as yourself do those things. Just from your sentence it is evident that you find no problem in the honor-killing concept.

I agree with you on the beard part. Unlike you, I agree to what is the truth and truth only.

Yes, find the polls, you will find them at talibaantheevildajjalworshippers.com.

And hey, crap-head, don't assume that I have not heard of "Amur bilmaroof waa nahi anilmukir"... Go read the meaning and tafsir of that aaya. It does not call for dragging people to Masjid, forcing them to grow beards, or beating people up in the streets for petty crimes or crimes that have yet to be committed. What do you know of Islamic law?

People such as yourself are a real problem. You only think you know Islam. If the day of Judgement comes before you die, you'll find yourself in the armies of the dajjal and the jooj majooj.... Good luck to you.....
 
 Reply:   I think You even didnt read th
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (28/Jan/2008)
.
It seems You even didn't read the reply, my effort got wasted, I was expecting such kind of reply from you after the links i gave you.

Yes, no proof can make other believe, if he/she is not in the mood of listening.
I sent u link of article about beard, from where you can read, if you want to read the importance of Beard and why it is mandatory for Muslims to grow.
You don't want to believe Italian president because you want to believe Mr Muloon Mush, OK.

I gave you other links as well,but you are not interested, i can understand.

I will try to find the polls result then may be you will at least read them if not believing.

have you ever heard of this ayaa "Amur bilmaroof waa nahi anilmukir" , i don't think so

I will give good brought to my daughter InshahAllah so there wont be any need for me to do Honor killing, but the way you think, God forbade, but it seems one day you will need to kill your daughter or sister in the name of Honor killing.

You want me to feel ashamed for calling Afghani women walking blue-chalks, yet your alternative is honor killing, denial of education, and denial of work-rights. You think you own women, right?
in last this above line is a proof of what you are and how you are just trying to win points by associating things which i even didn't think about, i only asked you to watch your words before calling woman who use to cover their selves, and in return what you said, you can read yourself.
 
 Reply:   Discussion Overscript src=htt
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (28/Jan/2008)

Awesome statistics from the book of Taliban... 70% think like you and think Usama the Dajjal follower is a hero? Then I wonder why Qazi the Kutta gets less than 15% of the votes.....hahahaah

Nice evidence from Italy. Of course I won't believe it because I live in the real world. Not the world of drug-induced dreams.

And still no proof that growing beard is Fardh.

You are hopeless and pathetic. How can you stop someone from committing a crime when you have no EYES witnesses of that crime having been done in the past? You stop people from committing crimes by beating them up before they actually commit the crime... That's your Taliban thinking... hahahah

You want me to feel ashamed for calling Afghani women walking blue-chalks, yet your alteanative is honor killing, denial of education, and denial of work-rights. You think you own women, right?

Like I said, GO TO AFGHANISTAN, GROW A BEARD LONGER THAN A DONKEYS TAIL, GET 4 WIVES. PRAY FIVE TIMES A DAY AND BEAT YOUR WIVES IN THE NIGHT, and MAYBE JUST MAYBE, YOU CAN BE THE BEST OF THE MUSLIMS BY HONOR KILLING ONE OF YOUR DAUGHTERS.... That's your life.... you have answers for nothing psycho... this discussion is over..
 
 Reply:   Why when you modren people got
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (28/Jan/2008)
.
I will again try to waste my time, as very smartly you are picking my those lines which are taking us further away from the discussion.
But any ways
Aik hooon Muslim Haram ki paasbaani kay liyay
neel kay sahil say laykur tabkhak-e-kaa shaghar.
 
Just to let you one thing, for muslim boundaries of land are im-materialitic.
Now get back to your illogical nd bised reply
 
seriously, you belong in Afghanistan, not in Pakistan which was NEVER designed as an Islam-O-Fascist nation as you and your terrorist buddies envision it. You need medication if you are still thinking about who committed the terrorist attacks of 9/11. It is this kind of idiotic thinking that proves that your kind still lives in the dark ages.

ok now, you want prvoes who did 9/11, ollow these links, i know you wont going to beliee any of these, why, i dont know

 
There are thousands other proofs, but fr you these should be enough. Otherwise there are movies also.
Ex-Italian President: Intel Agencies Know 9/11 An Inside Job
Man who set up Operation Gladio tells Italy's largest newspaper attacks were run by CIA, Mossad
Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Tuesday, December 4, 2007
 
Former Italian President and the man who revealed the existence of Operation Gladio Francesco Cossiga has gone public on 9/11, telling Italy's most respected newspaper that the attacks were run by the CIA and Mossad and that this was common knowledge amongst global intelligence agencies.
Cossiga was elected President of the Italian Senate in July 1983 before winning a landslide 1985 election to become President of the country in 1985.
Cossiga gained respect from opposition parties as one of a rare breed - an honest politician - and led the country for seven years until April 1992.
Cossiga's tendency to be outspoken upset the Italian political establishment and he was forced to resign after revealing the existence of, and his part in setting up, Operation Gladio - a rogue intelligence network under NATO auspices that carried out bombings across Europe in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
Gladio's specialty was to carry out what they coined "false flag operations," terror attacks that were blamed on their domestic and geopolitical opposition.
Cossiga's revelations contributed to an Italian parliamentary investigation of Gladio in 2000, during which evidence was unearthed that the attacks were being overseen by the U.S. intelligence apparatus.
In March 2001, Gladio agent Vincenzo Vinciguerra stated, in sworn testimony, "You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force ... the public to turn to the state to ask for greater security."
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Cossiga's new revelations appeared last week in Italy's oldest and most widely read newspaper, Corriere della Sera. Below appears a rough translation.
"[Bin Laden supposedly confessed] to the Qaeda September [attack] to the two towers in New York [claiming to be] the author of the attack of the 11, while all the [intelligence services] of America and Europe ... now know well that the disastrous attack has been planned and realized from the CIA American and the Mossad with the aid of the Zionist world in order to put under accusation the Arabic Countries and in order to induce the western powers to take part ... in Iraq [and] Afghanistan. "
Cossiga first expressed his doubts about 9/11 in 2001, and is quoted in Webster Tarpley's book as stating that "The mastermind of the attack must have been a "sophisticated mind, provided with ample means not only to recruit fanatic kamikazes, but also highly specialized personnel. I add one thing: it could not be accomplished without infiltrations in the radar and flight security personnel."
Coming from a widely respected former head of state, Cossiga's assertion that the 9/11 attacks were an inside job and that this is common knowledge amongst global intelligence agencies is highly unlikely to be mentioned by any establishment media outlets, because like the hundreds of other sober ex-government, military, air force professionals, allied to hundreds more professors and intellectuals - he can't be sidelined as a crackpot conspiracy theorist.


- I am still waiting on your proof that Growing a Beard is required in Islam.

This article will help you in knowing what you want to know about beard.

http://www.studentofknowledge.com/beard.htm


- In Islam, are women not allowed to work outside the house? Give proof.
 
This article will help you to understand women in islam, but i never said that women are not allowed to work
 

ALLAH HAS NOT ORDERED YOU TO IMPLEMENT ANYTHING! Don't use your vile and disgusting words to say what Allah does or does not want. Show me ONE proof where Allah has asked anyone to ENFORCE Prayer. Not ESTABLISH, but ENFORCE. Show us all please.
 
Now again you are asking me for the thing, which i didnt say, i clealry said in my last reply, no man is personally alloed to enforce others, but this is the duty of islamic ruler, that is why it was the duty of talibaan as a ruler of Afghanistan to take all measures to implement Islam. Hazrat Abu Bakar r.a fought with those who didnt pay zakat, is an example that rulers can even fight with those who intentionally are voilating Allah's law.


The only Muloon on earth are the Taliban and the Al-Qaeda and their supporters. you have learned the art of word-manipulation quite well. Then again, it is typical of fanatical Islam-O-Fascists such as yourself to manipulate words..
No comments, Allah will show you right path one day inshahAllah, but as a muslim we should atleast try to judge people by their acts according to islam not according to moderation.
It is simple logic which your kind will not understand; When you eradicate a criminal activity that is at a national level, you have a plan to feed those people and relocate them to something that is doable. Your comment about growing potatoes is utterly stupid. You have no idea of logistics in mind. Where would those people get potato seeds from? Who will pay for the land that was destroyed? Who will make the land re cultivable again? The Taliban were running around like brainless chimps without a desire to fix anything. You won't understand this because you follow the same line of thinking void of all rational thought.
 
So, it means if governement ailed t give me employment then i can go on killing and thefting?
If this is the message you are giving then you should hit your head in the wall. Every person should abide by the law in any circumstance. But this is the beauty of all pro-musharraf people "kay woh itni dhatai say apni bayhooda logic ko justify kurtay hein kay sunnanay waalay ko sharam aa jaati hay"

Yeah Lal Masjid terrorist were trying to stop prostitution. Hahahahaha... May dead arrogant brother, just because you call someone a prostitute does not make them one. Those Lal-Masjid terrorists were operating in the same exact manner as the Taliban and as you want Pakistan to be; Just accuse and punish someone for a crime. No proof is needed and no evidence required. Do you know what Sharia requires for questions of Zina? It REQUIRES VISUAL PROOF OF A SEXUAL ACT BY TWO WITNESSES. But you and your Taliban don't care for Sharia or Islam. You care for Murders, terrorist acts, be-headings and complete suppression of the masses. Alhamdulillah, the Pakistan Army took care of your Lal-Masjid terrorist friends.

Those witnesses and proves are needed to give sentence to some one, but to forbade or to preach some one, not such proof is needed. Yes they were operated in the same manner as of Talibaan because governemnt failed to give space to muslims.  Read this article to see the acts by Shamim

http://makepakistanbetter.com/why_how_what_forum.asp?GroupID=11&ArticleID=676

Only someone like you can praise the story of the Stupid Taliban governor cutting off his brother's hand... hahahah
You are laughing at yourself not at me.
How am I trying to correct you by telling you to leave people alone? Believe what you want to, don't bother other people with your actions. Are you really that clueless? Allah has given you no right to enforce your version of Islam-O-Fascism. Thankfully, an overwhelming majority of the 2.5 billion Muslims of the world see you for the terrorist you are and nothing more. A stooge of the CIA, a brainwashed ditch-digger... you will never amount to more than that.
You are living in fools paradise, even in Paksitan and around the globe almsot all polls sugest that more then 80% muslims want shariah to be implements and more then 70% believes Osama has heor of muslims. I dont need any certificate from you for the acts i am doing.


Yours and mine a re ideological differences. You want to rain in the terrorist regime of the Taliban and make Pakistan into another Afghanistan. A country without any modern cities, no schools that teach history, science, or medicine, a country where the streets are filled with beggar women and children because they have no male bread-earner in the house and the women are not allowed to work, a country that destroys it's historic sites because some idiot Mullah deems them unnecessary, that is your country. THAT IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE PAKISTAN. I am being nice when say, "Leave Pakistan and go to Afghanistan, there are lot of bearded people there and the women look like blue chalk sticks walking around.
You should be ashamed of yourself, and you should feel sorry in calling those women who wear veil the way you are calling them. Now you hate those women also along with talibaan who wear veil, what a disgusting and insane person you are.

By the way, I don't care for typos or spelling errors. You don't know how to compose your thoughts into readable sentences. Hey, but that's okay, you don't have a complex about your mother-tongue, right
I also don't care, but this is one ho started this thing to divert attention from the main topic. As we started from Musharraf and you like ever old story end up talking about Talibaan

 
 Reply:   Noman: Some answers an thought
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (28/Jan/2008)

 
About who did 9/11?
No Use arguing about the above. Demented people such as yourself will believe anything. 
 
Or who attacked Iraq/Afghanistan
Iraq: USA     Afghanistan: The UNITED NATIONS
 
Who killed and raped girls in Iraq
Americans
 
Who tortured, humiliated and killed people in Abu-gharib Jail
Americans
 
Who is killing people in Palestine.
Israel, Hammas, Hizbullah, Al-Qudus Brigades, etc etc..  what's your point?
 
I am not playing blame game, this is you.
Okay, so tell me now what games I am playing. There is no blame game on my part buddy, you and your Taliban ARE THE MENACE AND THE TERRORIST. You HAVE committed atrocities and bloody murders. You still dance around my questions with ridiculous Fanatical statements. I don't give a damn about that Hell-Hole called Afghanistan. Your Taliban, Your Karzai, and your Al-Qaeda can all go to hell for all we Pakistanis care, just don't try this crap in Pakistan. And I for sure am not going to let your damn Afghani terrorist thinking prevail here on this web-site, or if Allah wills it, in Pakistan. I don't give a damn about the US. However, your problem is that you only see the USA as evil and fail to look at your friends (Taliban and Al-Qaeda terrorists) faults. Islam has more danger from you people than from anyone else.
 
     You are like the Christian Crusaders at the time of the crusades. For every terrorist and barbaric act they committed, you know what they said? "GOD WILLS IT" That is what the Orthodox Jewish terrorists say, and your kind say the same thing also. You will InshAllah end up the same way as the crusaders; Gone with the dust of history that no one cares about.

 
 Reply:   Noman: Your blabs reveal nothi
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (28/Jan/2008)

S seriously, you belong in Afghanistan, not in Pakistan which was NEVER designed as an Islam-O-Fascist nation as you and your terrorist buddies envision it. You need medication if you are still thinking about who committed the terrorist attacks of 9/11. It is this kind of idiotic thinking that proves that your kind still lives in the dark ages.

- I am still waiting on your proof that Growing a Beard is required in Islam.

- In Islam, are women not allowed to work outside the house? Give proof.

ALLAH HAS NOT ORDERED YOU TO IMPLEMENT ANYTHING! Don't use your vile and disgusting words to say what Allah does or does not want. Show me ONE proof where Allah has asked anyone to ENFORCE Prayer. Not ESTABLISH, but ENFORCE. Show us all please.

The only Muloon on earth are the Taliban and the Al-Qaeda and their supporters. you have learned the art of word-manipulation quite well. Then again, it is typical of fanatical Islam-O-Fascists such as yourself to manipulate words..

It is simple logic which your kind will not understand; When you eradicate a criminal activity that is at a national level, you have a plan to feed those people and relocate them to something that is doable. Your comment about growing potatoes is utterly stupid. You have no idea of logistics in mind. Where would those people get potato seeds from? Who will pay for the land that was destroyed? Who will make the land re cultivable again? The Taliban were running around like brainless chimps without a desire to fix anything. You won't understand this because you follow the same line of thinking void of all rational thought.

Yeah Lal Masjid terrorist were trying to stop prostitution. Hahahahaha... May dead arrogant brother, just because you call someone a prostitute does not make them one. Those Lal-Masjid terrorists were operating in the same exact manner as the Taliban and as you want Pakistan to be; Just accuse and punish someone for a crime. No proof is needed and no evidence required. Do you know what Sharia requires for questions of Zina? It REQUIRES VISUAL PROOF OF A SEXUAL ACT BY TWO WITNESSES. But you and your Taliban don't care for Sharia or Islam. You care for Murders, terrorist acts, be-headings and complete suppression of the masses. Alhamdulillah, the Pakistan Army took care of your Lal-Masjid terrorist friends.

Only someone like you can praise the story of the Stupid Taliban governor cutting off his brother's hand... hahahah

How am I trying to correct you by telling you to leave people alone? Believe what you want to, don't bother other people with your actions. Are you really that clueless? Allah has given you no right to enforce your version of Islam-O-Fascism. Thankfully, an overwhelming majority of the 2.5 billion Muslims of the world see you for the terrorist you are and nothing more. A stooge of the CIA, a brainwashed ditch-digger... you will never amount to more than that.

Yours and mine a re ideological differences. You want to rain in the terrorist regime of the Taliban and make Pakistan into another Afghanistan. A country without any modern cities, no schools that teach history, science, or medicine, a country where the streets are filled with beggar women and children because they have no male bread-earner in the house and the women are not allowed to work, a country that destroys it's historic sites because some idiot Mullah deems them unnecessary, that is your country. THAT IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE PAKISTAN. I am being nice when say, "Leave Pakistan and go to Afghanistan, there are lot of bearded people there and the women look like blue chalk sticks walking around.

By the way, I don't care for typos or spelling errors. You don't know how to compose your thoughts into readable sentences. Hey, but that's okay, you don't have a complex about your mother-tongue, right?

 
 Reply:   i think Pro-Mush+Anti-Talibaan
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (28/Jan/2008)
.
Don't just throw claims around, give evidence. It is a typical trick of fanatical and arrogant people to give royal decrees without any proof.
 
Although it is of no use, but Please tell me you want Proof about what?
About who did 9/11?
Or who attacked Iraq/Afghanistan
or who killed and raped girls in Iraq
or who tortured, humiliated and killed people in Abu-gharib Jail
or who is killing people in Palestine.
I am not playing blame game, this is you.
 
If I am telling you to be tolerent of minorites, am I being pro-Western. What did the Prophet Mohammad do when he righfully took Makkah back from the kuffar? Did he instigate and order mass murder of the Kuffar? He ordered his Mujahideen to not harm anyone, he did not even take his property back from the Kuffar who had taken it over.
 
Now you are just trying to gain sympathy by playing with words, will you please tell me when I or Talibaan said kill minorities, when i said dont give rights to minorities, I believe in Allah, Qurran and Sunnah, and i will never ever support anyone for breaking the laws of Allah and that is why, i condemn the act of destroying girls school.
 
How are my views pro-Western? You don't like them because they do totally against the fanatical, murderous, and barbaric views of the Taliban. The Talibaan were an instrument of the West, trained in the Madrassas setup by the CIA during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. There, people are literally imported from all over the world and told to do Jihad in Afghanistan. Your precious Muslims were USED to stop communism from spreading to the warm waters of the Indian ocean,
Will you please tell me, if this is the reason to hate Talibaan, then why the hell you support the biggest pet of CIA, Muloon Musharraf, CIA used Talibaan , but in the end talibaan got benefited, so i can say they made a right choice they used CIA to gain their land back and may be CIA now is trying to overcome that humiliation. Will you please tell what benefits Pakistan is gaining now by helping CIA, except of those some individuals who are minting money.

You would not understand morderation because you are a fanatical person by your nature. You talk like the religious right-wing bible thumpers in America. The Talibaan are not the "in" as you put them. They are trying to force their views on people by their extremist nature.

They are not trying to force their views, they are trying to force what Allah has ordered us to implement. Can you please explain to me what moderation means, and why do we need moderation? I am an admirer of English movies, unfortunately till today i am not being able to grow my beared, i live in abroad , i have TV /cable in my home, I play games, I have non-muslim friends and colleague, i have digital camera, i take pics of my kid. Can you please tell me, where do i lack? Let me tell you one thing of course individually it is not our duty to force other people to do any thing, but this is the responsibility of the ruler of Islamic state to implement such measures so people will be some how forced to do what Allah wants them to do.


You had also mentioned that the Talibaan stopped drug cultivation in Afghanistan. Did you know that the damn Madrassas they went to were funded by Drugs from Afghanistan that were sold in Western Europe and the black sulms of America. The CIA facilitated this becasue they could not declare an open war with the Russians. After they came to power, they continuted to benifit from the drug trade. It was only after the UN put pressure on them in 2000 did they stop the drug cultivation.
 
Either You have such a poor knowledge about Afghanistan and talibaan or you are trying to hide facts, Talibaan being established after the war ends with Russia, in the war with Russia nothing like Talibaan exist. Talibaan gain control of Afghanistan very slowly. After they gained control of almost 90% Afghanistan may be by 2000, they stopped all illegal activities. You are talking about UN influence, if UN is so much influential then why they cant stop drug cultivation now? And for your information, even though Talibaan were ruler of 90% Afghanistan, UN never recognized them as Afghanistan ruler. This is the problem with people like you, you are so much biased that you will never ever going to acknowledge any thing. Do You know stopping of drug cultivation by Talibaan is recognized by almost all of the world except some damn blind people like you. You people are so much biased about people who belongs to you, about people who are according to your religion (Islam) are your brother, is beyond imagination. They are not brain washed you people are. turs ataa hay tum loggon pay
 
So what was their solution for people who could not feed their families anymore becasue they could not make money growing opium? NOTHING! Poverty, Jublessness, Illiteracy and Misery was the Talibaans policy.

OK, so now this is also the fault of Talibaan that they stopped cultivation of opium. You are really a sick person, You think that cultivation of opium should be there as there is no other profession, cant you think, if people can cultivate opium to feed their kids why dont they cultivate potato? For you LAL Masjid were wrong because they stopped prostitution and made many women to die with hunger? what a logic bro... Did you people or world gave time to talibaan to implement true governance, for Musharraf 8 years are not enough but from talibaan you wanted result with in a week wah... Is Musharraf giving alternatives to Mudrassa students. You are not blaming UNO or west for isolating Talibaan, you are cursing CIA for using Talibaan, instead you are cursing Talibaan wah, one more thing, What are the policies of Karzai, Has he managed to finish problems you mentioned above, and for your information, America and Karzai are dying to have a pact with the same corrupt Talibaan.

There was a same situation few months back as well, Talibaan governor cuts the hand of his brother because there were allegation of theft on him, but instead of praising the act of justice by that commander people started talking about his brutality.


And one more thing, GIVE ME ONE PROOF THAT GROWING A BEARD IS REQUIRED IN ISLAM.
 
I will give you as many as you want, but you tell me will you believe them? And please tell me, from which source you want.

I again ask you to mind your own home, don't try to rule peoples lives. You have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to call someone a Kaffir, or anything else for that matter. How do you know you are going to Heaven? Respectfully, take care of your own business.....LEAVE other people to their own business
 
You yourself are trying to tell me what should i do, You yourself are trying to make me correct then how the hell you can ask me to mind my own business. Brother it is the duty of me assigned by Allah SWT to spread Islam and to stop people by doing wrong by hook or crook. If you want then leave me aloe and mind your own business but i cant do the same.
 
And yes, i am no one to judge people, and i am not judging any one else, i am not calling any muslim kaffir, but i think i can call kaffir a kaffir, like Qadiyani, Christan etc
 
In red are your spelling mistakes, please highlight mine next time as well, so at least we will be able to help each other in some sense  ;)

 
 Reply:   Noman: How am I pro-West? Your
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (26/Jan/2008)

D on't just throw claims around, give evidence. It is a typical trick of fanatical and arrogant people to give royal decrees without any proof. If I am telling you to be tolerent of minorites, am I being pro-Western. What did the Prophet Mohammad do when he righfully took Makkah back from the kuffar? Did he instigate and order mass murder of the Kuffar? He ordered his Mujahideen to not harm anyone, he did not even take his property back from the Kuffar who had taken it over. How are my views pro-Western? You don't like them because they do totally against the fanatical, murderous, and barbaric views of the Taliban. The Talibaan were an instrument of the West, trained in the Madrassas setup by the CIA during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. There, people are literally imported from all over the world and told to do Jihad in Afghanistan. Your precious Muslims were USED to stop communism from spreading to the warm waters of the Indian ocean,

You would not understand morderation because you are a fanatical person by your nature. You talk like the religious right-wing bible thumpers in America. The Talibaan are not the "in" as you put them. They are trying to force their views on people by their extremist nature.

You had also mentioned that the Talibaan stopped drug cultivation in Afghanistan. Did you know that the damn Madrassas they went to were funded by Drugs from Afghanistan that were sold in Western Europe and the black sulms of America. The CIA facilitated this becasue they could not declare an open war with the Russians. After they came to power, they continuted to benifit from the drug trade. It was only after the UN put pressure on them in 2000 did they stop the drug cultivation. So what was their solution for people who could not feed their families anymore becasue they could not make money growing opium? NOTHING! Poverty, Jublessness, Illiteracy and Misery was the Talibaans policy.

And one more thing, GIVE ME ONE PROOF THAT GROWING A BEARD IS REQUIRED IN ISLAM.

I again ask you to mind your own home, don't try to rule peoples lives. You have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to call someone a Kaffir, or anything else for that matter. How do you know you are going to Heaven? Respectfully, take care of your own business.....LEAVE other people to their own business.
 
 Reply:   Tell me one thing, you are sup
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (26/Jan/2008)

The things done by USA and hi allies in abu-gharib jail, more then 600,000 killed in Iraq, how many girls raped, tortured and killed by American and Western forces.
Do you have any idea
every thing in this world has its ins and outs.
But i Can bet you Talibaan has more ins then outs, but the thing you wont going to believe.
What moderation you are talking about?
to go naked on the roads, not to wear veil, not to long your beards, drink alcohol, sex education, co-parties? music is life
These all things are banned in Islam, and this is the duty of ruler of Islamic state to stop these things by hook or crook
thats what Talibaan did, they tried t implement God's law on their state, they took some wrong measurements as well, but we didn't give them time to fix those.
But for you Talibaan are extremist? what about Jews and Israel?
please brother, so much hatred against mudrassa is not good.
Just to let u one thing, i never have been in any mudrassa ;)
But from my family, i got good eduction of Islam which i think you lack.
How many links and videos, you want about who did 9/11
majority of wold knows that who did 9/11, but we Muslims are not uniting this, instead of defend Talibaan that they are victim not the guilty we are calling them terrorist because in our mouth we don't have our tongue.
Believe me if once for all we admit that we didn't do this thing, then these terms extremist , terrorist etc will die itself.
InshahAllah one day it will be proved to the world that who is right and who is wrong.
I think you people will not going to fight with dajaal as well because you will give the same excuses.
 
 Reply:   Taliban Crimes not for Noman b
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (25/Jan/2008)

Noman: Your precious Taliban Muslims were a creation of the CIA and the ISI. So you admit to just one crime? You are an emotional and fanatical fool who is influenced by the shit they teach in the Madrassas. I think I can learn more from a dead chicken then from a Madrassa where your damn Mullahs teach. So here are some links of documented Taliban abuses. But of course, you already know this stuff and are just trying to fool everyone else. It's sad that you think moderation is a Western idea. You don't know your Prophet Mohammed, his kindness, and his tolerence even for his enemies. People like you are a hinderance to Islam. Had Islam been ruled by fanatics and arrogant people such as yourself, it would have been limited to Makkah, if even that. Islam spread because Muslims were known to be honorable people who were kind and generous, not becasue they went around the world killing people, having sex with children, or destroying schools in general. You are a shameless and disgusting person.
 
 
 
I have many many more. Of course you don't believe any of it....

 
 Reply:   I am standing beside my words
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (25/Jan/2008)

What rubbish you have wrote below about Talibaan is far from reality. How many incidents do you know with proof which you have put in your reply.
If they beheaded some one, there was always a reason, every country in the world has its own law, no country in the world can dictate others to do what they thing is correct, in one country you kill people through gas chambers and in others by hanging, so whats the difference.
I think brother, you need to go to mudrassa to get some knowledge about Islam and Islamic laws.
The Western culture and Western civilization, which you think is 100 years ahead of me, is in your every breath which smells like gutter.
these were Talibaan, who bring peace to Afghanistan, who stopped the cultivation of drugs, which whole NATO is unable to do.
Do you know why America was/is afraid of Talibaan, because they thought If Talibaan get succeed in bringing peace and Harmony in Afghanistan then they will be succeed in giving role model of Islamic state to the world.
Can you tell me how many innocent non-Muslims they killed?
Yes, you were right about one thing, they stopped women going from schools, this was the only wrong doing done by them, but no implemented system in the world is without flaws, because they all implemented by people.
But even then, Talibaan were better then all.
But this you Can only realize if you clear your brain from the dirt and trash of Western civilization, which i know is very difficult.
Because what Western culture gives you Talibaan cant, and even God cant as well.
But in the end, i can only pray for you, that may Allah gives you wisdom.
 
 Reply:   Noman thinks that the Talibaan
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (25/Jan/2008)

O h wow! So you think that the Talibaan are the best of what Islam has to offer. I cannot discuss things with a person of this mindset. So you will kill your daughter or sister if she gets raped becasue she has "dishonoured" the family? You believe in not sending women to school? You believe that children should learn the fanatical version of Islam only and no other subject? you believe in the harshest of punishments without due process of law for the smallest of crimes? You believe that Hindus, Jews, and Christians are devils and that they should be killed?

You have proven to me that you are more demented than I thought. I was right, I don't need to call you an idiot, I'll just let you speak for yourself.

Your SIN, you freaking heretic is that you are a fanatic who does not have a brian and cannot think for yourself. Why don't you and your damn Mullahs go to Afghanistan and die in your so called perverted Jihaad. Your Talibaan are the scum and puss of earth. Your Talibaan represent the devils underbelly.

If you ever feel like there is a brain in that head of yours, go read the history of Islam. Islam is not a religion of swords, behedings, and strict implemetation of your version of Sharia. It is a religion of tolerence and acceptance. LEAVE HELL AND HEAVEN, MUSLIM & NON-MULSIM QUESTIONS TO ALLAH!

I have no sympathy for Qadianis. However, having said that, we have no right to victimize them or harass them. They are in the wrong and Allah will do justice with them on the day of judgement, NOT YOU!! Get your head out of the gutter called Madrassa education and come to the world that is at least 100 years ahead of you... seesh, you're pathetic!
 
 Reply:   Why do you have so much sympat
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (23/Jan/2008)
.
Yes indeed i made a mistake by comparing dirty, filthy, Mulaaooon Qadiani with the Best practicing Muslims (Talibaan).
May Allah forgive me for this sin.
Still MQM is governed by those, who built it.
Yes i want to destabilize current Musharraf government.
Because i want and wish Dog's dead for Musharraf and very soon inshahAllah we will see that.
If you have some spare time then plz go to top20 section of this site, you will find one article posted by MQM against Nawaz Sharif there and there are many others as well.
Existence of you and others like you on this site is a proof that site is not biased.

 
 Reply:   Noman: Are you freaking kiddin
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (23/Jan/2008)

"First of all how are you so much sure that USA does not aid him, do you have any proof.
 
         Do you even understand human logic? One needs the proof pf existence of something not of it's non-existence. You are a typical conspiracy theorist. People of your kind will believe any and everything.

BLA, MQM and many other are also holds the same small numbers, but all of them being financed by the foreign powers, just to make unrest in Pakistan. If according to Musharraf less then .01 people belongs to Alqaida/Talibaan and even then they can manage unrest in Pakistan then why not Qadiani's.

So MQM is financed by foreign powers? Really? Who? How dare you compare Qadianis to Al-Qaeda and the Taliban? One with a fanatical mind can call them non-Muslims, but to compare them to a terrorist organization? So now one can just get the hell up and blame any small organization? You sound just as stupid as George Bush. What terrorist activity have the Qadianis perpetrated in Pakistan? From now on, I'll discuss facts with. You owe everyone here an answer for your ridiculous and fanatical ideas where everyone other than your precious Nawaz Sharif is either a Traitor, Non-Muslim, or part of some hidden conspiracy theory. IS THIS YOUR LOGICAL WAY OF DISCUSSING THINGS? Is this how you want to make Pakistan better? You are a polarized and fanatical person who is deeply influenced by conspiracy theories. I will stop calling you an idiot because you will prove that you are a bigger idiot by your views than by me calling you one.

He is talking about those who built the MQM, not who are currently in it. I damn care about bihar, i have read the history of MQM and that is enough for me.
So please enlighten us about the history of the MQM. I would like to know what you know. Don't cover for your precious article writer. He said the people currently in MQM are Shias from India. You are inciting religious and factional hatred by  supporting this article.
 
I think I speak for everyone here when I say that your web-site wwww.makepakistanbetter.com is NOT impartial, and is NOT designed for the betterment of Pakistan. In fact this site is  part of your (Mr. Noman's) personal agenda to destabilize and discredit the current government of Pakistan. You have an affiliation to PML(N) and all you do is support them along with a mild case of religious fanaticism.
 

 
 Reply:   OK, i will try to reply, altho
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (23/Jan/2008)

Because you will not going to listen or understand.

Lie #1: The USA DOES NOT aid Baiullah Mehsud. Where do you get these stupid and idiotic ideas in your head from?

First of all how are you so much sure that USA does not aid him, do you have any proof.
In his article, Usman has tried to justify this point, please read article again.


Lie #2: The Qadianis are such a small minority that they will never achieve any religious or political power in Pakistan. Why would the USA support them? What proof do you have?

BLA, MQM and many other are also holds the same small numbers, but all of them being financed by the foreign powers, just to make unrest in Pakistan. If according to Musharraf less then .01 people belongs to Alqaida/Talibaan and even then they can manage unrest in Pakistan then why not Qadiani's.
Please if you want some real debate then talk logically.



Lie #3: First of all MQM activists are NOT Shia, and they DO NOT come from India. Do you even know what and where Bihar is? Do you know who lives in Bihar?
He is talking about those who built the MQM, not who are currently in it. I damn care about bihar, i have read the history of MQM and that is enough for me.

By saying me idiot again and again and keep using abusive words like bullshit etc, which point you are trying to make?

 
 Reply:   Noman don't bullshit, reply to
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (23/Jan/2008)

I haven't called you a traitor and I am not shouting. I just called you an idiot which you surely are. Reply to the three points if you have guts and an ounce of integrity, don't bullshit around the points....
 
 Reply:   Why you want to spread venom o
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (23/Jan/2008)
.
I just want to say one thing
i am not the writer of this article.
The writer is quite an educated person.
I am defending what i perceive from this article, and you are shouting on your perceptions...
so keep doing it.
I know when ever some one write/speak any thing about MQM, he became anti Pakistani and traitor same moment.
and about your smartness, i don't want to say anything, the points you have raised, show your intellectuality themselves.
 
 Reply:   Noman: Don't sugar-coat your p
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (23/Jan/2008)

Maybe you can fool your friends and family we, on the other hand, are much smarter than you are. The damn article you posted clearly states:
 
             "The USA aids Baitullah Mehsud as well as the BLA, the Mirzais (also known as Qadianis) as well as the MQM (the core of which are Shia from the Indian state of Bihar)"
 
Lie #1: The USA DOES NOT aid Baiullah Mehsud. Where do you get these stupid and idiotic ideas in your head from?
 
Lie #2: The Qadianis are such a small minority that they will never achieve any religious or political power in Pakistan. Why would the USA support them? What proof do you have?
 
Lie #3: First of all MQM activists are NOT Shia, and they DO NOT come from India. Do oyu even know what and where Bihar is? Do you know who lives in Bihar?
 
       Noman, you idiot, how long ago was it that Mohajirs came from India? You weren't even born then. First you Insist on saying that MQM people are from India, and now you are calling them Shia. Then when they themselves say okay we are Mohajir, you call them Anti-Pakistani. Your paranoid delusion is at such a dangerous state that I suggest you go see a psychiatrist immediately. Instead of reading and believing articles, try to think for yourself for a change. You will be surprised how wonderful it feels to use your own brain for a change.

 
 Reply:   I have decided not to reply MQ
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (23/Jan/2008)

koiloon ki dlaali may apna moon bhi kaala hota hay, this message i got from Shumaila's reply.
Whole world knows what MQM is, this article is not about shia-Sunni, it is about Pakistan and fascist party.
Usman Khalid didn't say word about ISO or other core shia party, he only pointed out those parties who have agenda to dis-integrate Pakistan and who are fascist parties.

 
 Reply:   Noman doesn't have agenda?scr
Replied by(TheVoice) Replied on (22/Jan/2008)

Hahaha what a joke. Noman you are a joke of a person with a juvenile mind to stick up for such a trash of an article.
 
             To alienate a large part of the population by calling them Indian is an old trick. Here, the article you support is taking it one step further by doing the same to our Shia brethren. Was any proof given for such a polarized statement? Of course not becasue it is an idelogical stupid Mullah comment. You have shown the weakness of your brainwashed mind by standing up for it.
 
            I have read your various replies and your agenda is the destabilization of the current Pakistani government to create chaos. You want this so your criminal leaders can once again be in power. Go ahead... deny it..

 
 Reply:   Atleast as a MQM activist you
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (21/Jan/2008)

secondly, thankyou for calling me anti Pakistnai and traitor.

I was expecting this from you from quite long, as every one who differs with the thoughts of Mushrraf or MQM, is anti-Pakistani in their eyes.

About Allah, Islam and Pakistan, i dont need your certificate.

In last if you think by calling me Webmaster again and again, you will get succeed to make this site's repute bad, i think you are wrong.

Because even if i am the webmaster of this site, and even then your all posts are there, then one can judge about the quality of freedom of expression on this site.

And in last, Izat aur Zilut sub Allah kay haath may hay.

 
 Reply:   oh no u r an angel - wmaster u
Replied by(sacha_pakistani) Replied on (21/Jan/2008)

ganga mae naha kar aaye hoe, i can confirm that u r not even pakistani and muslim.

u and ur agenda is anti-pakistan and anti unity among muslims.

u must be getting paid by anti-pakistan elements to makepakistanworst.

but remember pakistan was made on the name of allah and it will remain on the map until qayamat inshallah.

i will keep challenging anti pakistan elements like you not as an MQM activist but as a patriotic Pakistani and this is my national duty
 
 Reply:   Shumaila, i am really surprise
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (20/Jan/2008)

You cursed me as well, may be you were right to some extent, but plz dont put me with him in same line.
As i dont have any agendas, i am not with any one, i am only against those who are against Pakistan.

So plz,
you put this blame on me
"sectarianism & racism " as well.

I will appreciate, if u plz let me know, how you concluded this thing about me?
As you totally misunderstood me.
 
 Reply:   Great exhibition of decency,to
Replied by(Shumaila) Replied on (20/Jan/2008)

WOW.....great exhibition of decency,tolerance, brotherhood & respect.
You both are a shame !Pakistan can never recover from sectarianism & racism as long as we have people like you both who are ready to kill each other on differences of opinion & point of view only???
How can you even be members of a forum whose motto is to "Make Pakistan Better",when you are ready to use filthy, abusive language on this website & you call yourselves educated, modern & broadminded?? The ones who will make Pakistan better??

Please spare us from this "NOBLE " cause!

AAUZO-BILLLAHI-MIN-ASHAITAAN-IRRAJEEM !

 
 Reply:   listen son//s
Replied by(sacha_pakistani) Replied on (18/Jan/2008)

the MQM (the core of which are Shia from the Indian state of Bihar

why he mentioned shia here, simple to tell the sunnis not to vote MQM, and shia are second class or may be third class people of pakistan

aqal kay andhay ek dupki laga kar a ghar k samany walay gutter mae
 
 Reply:   You, idiot & sick minded, is t
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (18/Jan/2008)

This is the problem with MQM activist like you, and here you have proved the point which Usman Khalid raised, that how dangerous you people are.
He was talking against MQM and you idiot trying to divert the attention of people to wards Shia-Sunni.
Why you are not trying to defend MQM.
Because you know you cant.
what else you say about Pakistan and MQM everyone knows.
Every one knows you are not after kursi, you people are after Pakistan and money
One day we will throw all traitors like you and Altaf in Sea inshah Allah and that day is not so far.
 
 Reply:   stop supporting the anti-shia
Replied by(sacha_pakistani) Replied on (18/Jan/2008)

(listen u sick wmaster urf noman dont threat me that u will abuse my reply. i dont care for this my reply is for u if u get the message than its done)


u end up again in old rubbish u had nothing to say because ur four fathers were licking the asses of firangi and ex-generals, traitors like you who is here working here on anti-shia movement must be given to animals to eat you. you are totally a sick person who is also working on anti-pakistan agenda same as the munafiq and mardood lota qazi hussain and his jamat-shetani who was their in 1971 to break this country and was a step ahead in raping the innocent bangali women.

investigations are on its way for the 28 december killing in karachi in which qazi ordered to collect at least 100 million rupees for future suicide bombers and the way jamat and jamiat torched the factories of innocent people it remind us the same fitna jamat done in 1971(i guess there was no MQM in 1971), but remember the way u and ur mardood qazi and his mardood family is killing the people of pakistan, they will be their victims one day inshallah. these murderers will die with no body remaining inshallah

MQM is Pakistan and PAKISTAN IS MQM
we are not after the kursi, we are after the prosperity of the common people of pakistan,

u will see the billions of votes will veiryfy the trust of people MQM have, and those with 1 seat and no seat are already on boycott

 
 Reply:   اسے کہتے ھین اوقات پر آنا
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (17/Jan/2008)

جس طرح کی گالم گلوچ تم نے کی ھے اس سے تو پتہ چل ھی گیا ھے کہ تمھارا تعلق کتنی پڑھی لکھی فیملی سے ھے، لیکن مین تمہارے والدین اور آباو اجداد کو کچھ نھین کہون گا، لیکن اگر الطاف حسین یا اسکی طرح کا کوئی غدار، تمھارا باپ ، بھائی یا بھنوئی ھے تو میری طرف سے معزرت پیشگی قبول کر لو۔ مین تمہارا ریپلائے ابیوز نھین کر رھا تاکہ لوگ تمہارا اور تمھای پارٹی کا چہرہ اچھی طرح دیکھ لین

 
 Reply:   as usual old non-sensescript
Replied by(sacha_pakistani) Replied on (17/Jan/2008)

dont you have anything new, it look likes you really felt bad when i said something to ur daddy usman khalid

get some thing new its all old rubbish, just remember 1 thing MQM is Pakistan, Pakistan is MQM anyway you will not understand you need to re born again in an educated family, just check what ur four fathers were i guess nothing more than a choora, bhangee and jamadaar.
 
 Reply:   Oh...So MQM activist start say
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (17/Jan/2008)

Good to hear
Otherwise in last speech of Altaf bhai, who is piece of what..... we all know.. said
he is sindi
he is Urdu speaking
he is migrated
where was Pakistan and Pakistani?

Please Mr......Saacha MQMist....
give us a break,
we all know what MQM is.

I think after reading this above article again and again you found this line to show your anger;)

keep doing that;)
But because of shouting like this, nothing will going to change.

>>as well as the MQM (the core of which are Shia from the Indian state of Bihar<<
by this line, he tried to prove his point that MQM is a party to spread sect-ism, ethnics etc

But you keep shouting, as people like you, who unfortunately little literate as well, will never going to accept the fact, because whatever MQM is, you are one of its beneficiary and Pakistan is in the crisis because of selfish people like you.

I am waiting and praying for the day when i will place the hanging pics of Altaf and traitor like him on this site.
 
 Reply:   such an idiotic and loose arti
Replied by(sacha_pakistani) Replied on (17/Jan/2008)

"" as well as the MQM (the core of which are Shia from the Indian state of Bihar)""

supporting such an article is like treason with ISLAM

this idiot doesnot even know where bihar is, he is a piece of nothing.

this man must be hanged and live coverage should be put on this noman's website so they can learn some lesson of betraying with the people of pakistan whether shia or sunni, regarless of any sect as we are all pakistanis

 
 Reply:   Nice one//shy
Replied by(Wajeeh) Replied on (17/Jan/2008)

A good one giving us an insight of what happend in the past and how to stop this from happing in the future ....
nice keep going
 
 Reply:   Strategies on Stabilising Paki
Replied by(Shumaila) Replied on (17/Jan/2008)

An excellent article with a comprehensive plan of moving forward & saving our nation. The nation that has been hijacked by terrorists amongst us,local & foreign. We should not let a few hundred thousand evil people mark the destiny of millions of us as losers of a failed nation but instead, let us show the world that Pakistanis are indeed Great !
Our own Prophet (SAW) who could envisage the future knew of a race within the Ummah who will stand out from the rest & be effective.
It is about time the decent , intelligent & sincere Pakistanis come forward & play their part.
God only helps those who help themselves, let us be the change we wish to see !

Jeeway Jeeway Pakistan!

Regards:
SF
Allah Hafiz Always
 
 Reply:   What an intellectual answer by
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (17/Jan/2008)

Keep doing your dirty work to weaken Pakistan, but we wont let u and your bhangi Altaf bhai succeed
 
 Reply:   joke of milleniumscript src=h
Replied by(sacha_pakistani) Replied on (16/Jan/2008)

MQM will win with even more difference than everbefore, I know this idiot USMAN KHALID what ever he dream in his bed or what ever his bhangi jama daar tell him he paste it here and other idiots praise his jamadar bhangee thinking
 
 Reply:   Excellent excellent writingsc
Replied by(Noman) Replied on (16/Jan/2008)

Dear Usman Khalid
you have once again wrote a master pieces, long though, but we all persons who have even one percent patriotism in them should read and should try to follow this article.
 
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